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GM-Volt EXCLUSIVE!: New Interview with Ric Fulop, Co-Founder of A123 Systems on Volt Batteries

October 15th, 2007 | Posted in: Battery, Original GM-Volt Interviews, Research

ric_fulop.jpg
Ric Fulop, Co-founder A123 Systems

I had the chance to speak with Ric Fulop, co-founder and marketing director of A123 Systems in Boston as the Volt was visiting there. You can hear the whole interview below the post, download it, or find it on iTunes podcasts.

I tried to find out of GM had their Volt pack yet, but he declined to comment. We talked a bit about the DOE/USABC grant. He told me A123 got an initial 15 million dollar grant 5 years ago. The new 12.5 million dollar grant was for research on a newer yet battery technology for extended-range EVs called “HD chemistry”. This new architecture will optimize the battery by modifying power/energy ratio and other characteristics to make it better suited for future generation plug-in hybrids.

I asked him about Denise Gray’s (GM battery director) comments that it takes battery makers 2 years to ramp up to mass production once a final design has been engineered. He agreed, indicating that there is an expensive validation process as well as manufacturing process scaling.

He noted that A123 supplies cells to Continental who then manufactures the packs. He feels everyone is moving swiftly. He is very comfortable with A123’s battery technology for the car, but noted still some work to be done in thermal management and packaging. He is fully confident though that the project is achievable.

I asked him for the battery specs in w-h/kg, but he decline to answer, citing it as competitive information. He admits people will be “pleasantly surprised” when the production car ships and packs are opened and analyzed, disclosing a very advanced technology. He admits it is a “step-above” what they’ve done in the past (i.e. for power tools) with extremely good calendar life and performance under many weather environments. He noted that A123 has made “custom cells” for the Volt, that their agreement indeed states a custom cell is to made made specifically for the Volt, and the cells are not those you can publicly see on their website.

He wouldn’t comment on EnerDel’s chemistry, but says they’re good people and he wishes them luck, indicating that it’s a new industry with room for a lot of companies.

We talked about where lithium-ion production is taking place geologically. He noted most of the lithium salt is in Chile, Bolivia, and Argentina, but that there is some lithium in the U.S., and assures us there is enough lithium on the planet for “several billion” plug-in hybrids.
He tells me A123 has 850 employees total, sites in Michigan, Massachusetts, and Canada, and production facilities in two different countries in Asia. Also he states A123’s goal is to use these facilities to make a competitively priced product, as cost is a limiting issue. He was unable to share with me their cells cost in dollars per kwh.

Importantly, he assures me that the price of cells are not holding anything back in terms of the production timeline. It is the standard automotive validation process (4 years) to get a car from concept to mass production that is pushing things to 2010.
He also relates that lithium-ion manufacturing process is mature, consumer electronic cells have been produced for a decade and a half, it’s just the new technological improvements afoot that are allowing cells to be now be applied to the automotive industry.

He wouldn’t give me the date of an IPO for A123, but notes they are very well capitalized, $132 million to be exact. He says an IPO will not be in the immediate future, but they are considering it for when the “time is right”.
He feels that goverment investment is highly important for li-ion research and has allowed this industry to happen. He believes the U.S. li-ion technology is currently more advanced than that in Japan and that government investment is needed to keep that advantage.

In fact, he shares with me that A123’s first $100,000 came from the DOE in 2002, when it was just him and the other co-founders. This financial seed allowed them to create their li-ion technology, eventually allowing them to be the largest lithium-ion employer in the U.S. Although corporate dollars could fund some low risj research with good ROI, he believes goverment grants are needed to allow new research into markets that don’t exist, and allows companies to pay for failures,and for taking risks mature companies couldn’t tolerate.

He tells me that since nickel pricing has increased, NiMh cells are at the moment actually more expensive than current advanced li-ion cells.

Although he was keeping some key facts close to the vest, Ric Fulop’s confidence that the car will go to production was apparent.

Posted by: Lyle

32 Responses to “GM-Volt EXCLUSIVE!: New Interview with Ric Fulop, Co-Founder of A123 Systems on Volt Batteries”


  1. AES
    Vote -1 Vote +1AES     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 6:17 am

    “This new architecture will optimize the battery by modifying power/energy ratio and other characteristics to make it better suited for future generation plug-in hybrids.”

    This probably means they are just making a larger cylindrical cell with thicker electrodes – the current M1 cells have relatively thin electrodes for optimum power, at the expense of lower energy density. The tradeoff will have to be inverted for PHEV applications.  

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  2. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 7:41 am

    Nice interview, Lyle, you asked all the right questions. Too bad many were not answered.  

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  3. Matthew
    Vote -1 Vote +1Matthew     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 8:27 am

    Please take this as constructive criticism. Some editing would be nice. The following I found confusing or wrong:

    1) “He told me A213 got an initial 15 million dollar grant 5 years ago.” Shouldn’t this be A123 ?
    2) Denise Gray is with who?
    3) “He noted that A123 supplies cells to Continental who then the packs.” Some clarification is needed here. Continental Airlines? Tires? And what does “…who then the packs” mean?

    Thanks for the post. Perhaps the interview could be posted in a question and answer type format?  

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  4. Rashiid Amul
    Vote -1 Vote +1Rashiid Amul     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 9:23 am

    Lyle,

    Matthew is kind of right, but I understand you are a physician with limited time. And yet, you do this site in your “inbetween” time. I don’t know how you do it, but I for one, really appreciate it. I don’t mind the typos and stuff. You keep this site updated very often.

    This is the first site I check during the day, and I check it 7 days a week. I enjoy your articles / reporting, as well as the many comments posted.

    Damn it, Captain. I am a computer programmer, not an electrical engineer! A lot of this stuff was over my head, so I had to teach myself by looking it up online. Because of you and your site, I am much more educated about EV’s, PHEV’s, batteries, etc. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
    You are truly awesome and doing a wonderful job. We and GM are very lucky to have this site.

    Excellent job, Lyle. Truly excellent.  

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  5. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 10:16 am

    I’d rather have more content with typos than less content with no typos. Lyle, this is a great site. Thanks!  

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  6. Tom
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 10:46 am

    FYI to everyone:

    On October 28th. Auto Line Detroit will have a half our segment on lithium-ion batteries and I believe Ric Fulop will be one of the speakers. This should be a very interesting interview.  

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  7. HI MPG
    Vote -1 Vote +1HI MPG     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 10:54 am

    I had an interesting conversation with a specialist in EVs from a large regional electric utility yesterday.

    One topic covered was “spent” battery pack recycling. His comment was that “nobody wants to recycle because there is no economic payback (regardless of the technology).

    Does this mean that legislation will be required (with penalties and incentives) to insure proper environmentally sound disposal of EV/hybrid battery packs?  

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  8. mbartosik
    Vote -1 Vote +1mbartosik     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 11:03 am

    Thanks Lyle.
    This site is on the top of my reading / web browsing list. Your time is much appreciated.

    My personal view is that I can live with some typos. The amount of work that you are doing here is at least equivalent to a part time job, if not full time. If a few typos means you get 30 minutes more sleep, then I say please get the sleep.  

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  9. Lyle
    Vote -1 Vote +1Lyle     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 11:14 am

    Typos fixed.
    Thanks for your support.  

    (Quote)


  10. OhmExcited
    Vote -1 Vote +1OhmExcited     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    Thanks for the interview. Exciting stuff.

    Interesting that Ric made the point that he doesn’t seem to think cost will be a significant hurdle to overcome. Really the biggest challenge he sees is meeting the spec from GM and performing validation and production ramp up in time.

    The discussion on where to acquire Lithium salts brings up an interesting question. Will that become a strategic commodity like oil is now? Argentina and Chile are friendly countries, but political environments in South America are a lot like the weather. Is there life after Lithium for PHEV’s?  

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  11. Estero
    Vote -1 Vote +1Estero     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    The most interesting part of the interview was: “A123 has made “custom cells” for the Volt, that their agreement indeed states a custom cell is to made made specifically for the Volt, and the cells are not those you can publicly see on their website.”

    What should we make of this?  

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  12. OhmExcited
    Vote -1 Vote +1OhmExcited     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    It means they are a step above anything they have now, which is good news.  

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  13. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    OhmExcited,

    I haven’t listened to the interview yet, but I don’t think he indicated that “he doesn’t seem to think cost will be a significant hurdle to overcome”.

    The point in the article is, “Importantly, he assures me that the price of cells are not holding anything back in terms of the production timeline.”.

    Cost not holding back production does not equal an inexpensive product (e.g. cost doesn’t hold back the production timeline of a Maybach either). GM can afford some 6 figure prototype battery cells to keep the timeline moving… I can’t ;)   

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  14. Luis
    Vote -1 Vote +1Luis     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    Lyle,

    Excellent information, typos or not, please keep up with the good work! It is survival time for the US auto industry. Volt is such a key product that will revolutionize the transportation, and the battery is a critical component to make this successful. I am glad we are finally putting some important emphasis to this aspect in the US.  

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  15. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 3:17 pm

    I agree with Rashiid, Luis, et al. What a great blog.

    You invest all of the time and energy to create such a great public service and what happens? You get edited! Ignore it.

    There is something about blogging and e-mail that just leads to typos. I guess it’s just the faster pace. You never see a hard copy, which always helps me to edit. Younger people just don’t worry about it. You should see the stuff I get from my younger son. Capitals? What are they? I don’t care. It’s just a pleasure to hear from him.

    I try to go back and edit my stuff pretty carefully, but they still slip through. I bet you didn’t notice, ahem, ahem.

    Anyway, I was so focused on the outstanding content that I didn’t see any stinking typos. How do you get these interviews anyway? Awesome.

    Don’t sweat the little stuff. Blog On!  

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  16. Drake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Drake     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 3:47 pm

    Awesome interview.

    What kept coming to mind for me during the investment part of the interview was LED technology- specifically the use of LEDs in traffic lights. The savings for an average intersection with LED lights is around $2000/year in electricity alone.

    $2000 * [1,000,000 intersections in the U.S.] = $2billion/year savings

    At $2billion/year, how long does it take to recoupe the initial investment into LED technology? I don’t know, but I would not think more than a handful of years. After the initial investment is paid off, for eternity (or atleast until a technology better than LEDs comes along) we have pure “profit”, for lack of a better word.

    Efficiencies like LED bulbs allow us all to have more. When goods or services cost less, we can consume more. It’s basic economics. Efficiency is the key to prosperity and an increasing standard of living for all. Now let’s look at PHEVs. If we can all pay 1/2 as much each year for transportation, then we have that much more money to purchase other things with. Our standard of living has increased.

    The same is no less true for investment in battery technology. Each dollar we invest in battery tech today will seem trivial to the colossal returns we see in the future.  

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  17. Rashiid Amul
    Vote -1 Vote +1Rashiid Amul     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    Drake,

    Nicely written. It will be unfortunate when the government finds some other way to piss the money away.  

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  18. kent beuchert
    Vote -1 Vote +1kent beuchert     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    “The same is no less true for investment in battery technology. Each dollar we invest in battery tech today will seem trivial to the colossal returns we see in the future.”

    That’s quite a claim and may very well be totally false. There may not be any magic battery technology to be invented. Those billions invested in something a seemingly simple as curing cancer haven’t produced anything to shout about after 40 years of trying, now have they? Why in the world do you believe that investing money equals
    technological and economic progress. It may, but then it may not. If there are plausible ideas out there, they won’t have much problem getting funding these days, with batteries a very hot item, with enormous profits hanging in the balance for the winner.  

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  19. Jim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Kent… if you mean by “cure” a magic bullet, one shot cures all, then you are correct. But the fact is that the investment in cancer research has produced quantifiable benefits in both the cause, treatment and diagnosis which has resulted in a continuing decrease in cancer deaths. Whether the same applies to battery research funding is still to be determined but as they say… “nothing ventured, nothing gained”. Personally, I think it is a wise investment in the future. Worst case, this is just another small bit of government waste spending… and just imagine what we could have been accomplished with the 400+ billion dollars (to date) being wasted in Iraq (which to put it in personal terms is around $1400 spent per every man, woman, and child in the U.S.). Quibbling over the benefits of battery research funding just seems silly.  

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  20. Talks
    Vote -1 Vote +1Talks     Says:
    October 15th, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    Lyle,
    You are doing an amazing job!
    As per A123 website,yheir batteries have 10+ calender life but GM is expecting 15+ year calender life. Could you please find out if they have achieved 15 year life with
    the new batteries designed for Volt ?  

    (Quote)


  21. Tom Crowley
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom Crowley     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 5:20 am

    Ok
    Lyle if your are doing this in your spare time
    you are doing a great job!!!!
    I’d like to see your daytime job, buy the way it hurts when I lift my arm up like this.
    The last doctor said “Don’t lift that way”
    Tom  

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  22. Drake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Drake     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 8:25 am

    Kent – I hear what you’re saying man, but you’re talking apples and oranges. I agree that there has been no cure for cancer yet, after all of the billions that have been spent, but there _is_ currently battery technology that allows for 40 miles (or more) of electric vehicular range. If there was a cure for cancer today, but it was very expensive, then the market could bring this cost down through tax breaks and other incentives that push more money into the technology. This is how a free market works in most cases- allow a finished good to reach mass-market status and its price will almost always fall. If there was a cure for cancer today, but it cost $1,000,000 per patient to administer, there is no doubt that that price would fall as the process of administering the cure is refined.

    The same is true for battery technology. TODAY we have battery technology that allows us to create awesome vehicles like PHEVs, HEVs and EVs. The tech is here today. The main obstacle, however, is cost. The Volt will cost around $30k while a basic ICE-based vehicle may run half that. We need to cost of battery technology to come down for the mass-adoption of PHEVs and EVs, and the best way to accomplish this, in my opinion, is to allow the market (i.e. battery manufacturers) to refine and streamline their processes, therefore allowing for greater efficiencies in the build process. The best way to allow for this, in my opinion, is a two-prong approach:

    First, the cars that use these batteries need to be highly subsidized through tax incentives so that demand can build for them. Once the demand is in place, efficiencies will arise in the manufacturing of these vehicles and prices will drop (i.e. it is usually less expensive to make 10k of something than 100).

    Second, research needs to be funded that will advance the technology further. As stated in the last interview Lyle did, NiMH battery technology was largely developed in the United States through U.S. research. This research is now paying off. More research needs to be funded to help lower the cost of the batteries.

    Once a market for PHEVs is created, it will be self-sustaining and self-advancing.

    The assembly-line production vs. hand-crafting allowed for the Model-T to be sold to the masses. The same will be true for large batteries and therefore PHEVs and EVs. PHEvs are not a pipe dream. We are witnessing a true revolution.  

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  23. Mark
    Vote -1 Vote +1Mark     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 10:19 am

    Lyle,

    I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate the site, and especially the e-mail notice of new content. I started getting a clue about environmental issues in the last couple of years. I’m not a scientist or an engineer, so some things just go over my head, but I’m picking things up as I go. I’m holding off on a new car purchase because of your site, and I’m looking at adding solar power to my house to make sure that dumping my petrol pollution doesn’t turn into coal/smokestack pollution. Thanks for taking the time to make a difference.

    -Mark  

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  24. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 11:35 am

    Jim, 6:02 PM:

    Exactly right. Thank you.

    Not to get too political, but I think that your figure of $400 million wasted in Iraq is very low. That’s just what has been directly squandered to date.

    I have seen estimates which considered the economic value of the lives lost, the cost of caring for thousands of grievously maimed and wounded veterans for the rest of their lives, and various other “externalized”, or as yet unrealized, costs in the range of $ 2 to $3 TRILLION and counting.

    This doesn’t even take into account the economic impact of the price of oil going from what, $40 to $80+ per barrel? This is very related to the war including, but not limited to, the virtual shutting in of the huge reserves of Iraq.

    All of this is obviously directly related to the Volt and its ilk. If we don’t substantially reduce our oil consumption, our standard of living is about to take a drastic turn for the worse, as our wealth is transferred to the oil companies and nations.

    As you so correctly point out, had we spent the billions, or trillions, on reducing oil consumption, we would be in a far, far, better place.  

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  25. Jeremy
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeremy     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 11:35 am

    Lyle,

    This is a great site and your time invested in this is much appreciated. My wife is signing up too. In reference to a previous comment, is there any information on how much energy it will take to charge one of these cars? If I were to look at solar panels purely to charge the car I wonder how many kVA I would need.

    Jeremy  

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  26. Lyle
    Vote -1 Vote +1Lyle     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Jeremy
    It is expected to take 8kwh of energy to fill the battery.
    More on that here:

    http://www.gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-for-use-and-cost-of-operation/  

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  27. BlackSheep
    Vote -1 Vote +1BlackSheep     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    Lyle see a lot of the same questions asked by newer people who haven’t had the opportunity to read all the posts. Maybe the blog could use a Volt FAQ section so that newer folks can get up to speed.  

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  28. Jeremy
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeremy     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 3:31 pm

    Nice suggestion BlackSheep. It may also be worth posting a message for new people (like me) to check out more of the site before posting. I should have seen that page, sorry about that. Just to note, I did some initial research and found that I would probably need a 2KW solar panel system which is about $10K-$15K installed. I would almost always be driving under 40 miles a day and would be using solar power to recharge the Volt. I just paid off my car yesterday but I want the Volt!  

    (Quote)


  29. R. Santos
    Vote -1 Vote +1R. Santos     Says:
    October 16th, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    Matthew,
    I just want my Volt news and update and Lyle is doing it. If you want to give constructive criticism may I suggest Simon & Schuster Handbook for Writers.com. As for the job that Lyle, our editor is doing here…Man, the man is doing a great job out of his personal time. Thanks Lyle for all your work. As Dave G. stated, I’d rather have more content with typos than less content with no typos. I hope Matthew doesn’t get invited to the GM-Volt’s BBQ in 2010. He may complaint about the hotdogs not been 12footer.  

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  30. Dr. Bar
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dr. Bar     Says:
    October 17th, 2007 at 6:27 am

    My wife and I would love to test drive the Volt from coast to coast. Thanks Lyle for keeping us up todate on things…  

    (Quote)


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