Japanese Government Pledges $215 Million USD to Develop Lithium-ion Batteries for PHEVs

30 Responses to “Japanese Government Pledges $215 Million USD to Develop Lithium-ion Batteries for PHEVs”

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   OhmExcited Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 11:38 am

   The Japanese have traditionally used government leverage to achieve private market dominance. This is nothing new. I wonder how they can away with it in the WTO now, though.  
   
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   wow Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 11:44 am

   Agreed, $20M is a ridiculously small sum for US plugin battery development, especially when you look at all of the money spent on fuel cells over the last decade. Which one is likely to make a difference now? The batteries. Might make the whole vision of vehicle fuel cells obselete.

   Is that a Colbert graphic? Sweet.  
   
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   Neutron Flux Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 12:07 pm

   Apparently the House Committee on Science and Technology is holding hearings today Oct. 03, 2007 on PEHV battery technology et al. Their web site is : http://science.house.gov/ Now is the time to write its members if the committee does nto recommend it, it will not likely get to the floor. The Dems on the committee should fund this for several reasons, Green tech, Carbon reduction & one less reason to let our young men die in the middle east in a civial war.  
   
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   Neutron Flux Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 12:11 pm

   The Subcommittee charter for the hearing can be found at: http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/File/Commdocs/hearings/2007/energy/03oct/hearing_charter.pdf  
   
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   OhmExcited Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 12:29 pm

   That’s a well-written charter with good panelists. Let’s hope it turns into something useful.  
   
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   Lyle Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 pm

   Nice pickup NeutronFlux! Densie Gray herself, battery czar of GM is one of the witnesses.  
   
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   kent beuchert Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 12:42 pm

   The Big Three recommended $600 million over 6 years and the DOE has awarded funds for the past three years and my guess is that they have funded any ideas worth funding and some that weren’t worth funding. The history of govt funding to advance technologies is a poor one – that’s simply not how technology advances, and often what’s funded ends up being the worst choice, often because the money has to be spent, but it’s not yet clear at that time which technologies are most likely to be the best. Politics also often muddies up decisions.
   There is a ton of investment capital out there that’s pouring into battery companies like Altair and others. I don’t know of any promising battery technology that isn’t being provided ample funds these days. The potential payoff is known to be enormous,
   a surefire inducement for investment capital. A123 Systems also has enormous income from the sale of their batteries – they don’t need any taxpayer dollars. And LG is the largest and most prosperous electronics company in the world – do you really think they need a US govt handout?  
   
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   George Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm

   How about we not steal from our neighbors who might not drive?
   If we want to pledge money to create energy independence through lithium ion batteries, maybe those of us on this board should start a private fund that we can donate to. Then we might also get some money back in the long run, if it works out.
   Government subsidies of corporations reduce the impetus that those corporations might have to be frugal and innovative.  
   
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   Rashiid Amul Says:
   October 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm

   Lyle, you ask, “What is going on?” and state you don’t want to get political. I understand that but see this story as almost 100% political.

   What is going on is this. President Bush is the biggest moron to have ever lead this nation of ours (I’m a Republican BTW). He would much rather fund the war to keep the oil, than fund the battery technology and get us off of oil. The rest of the GOP is just like him. They don’t get it. We could spend so much more than the Japanese on this (Kent’s comments not withstanding), but we don’t. From the GOP standpoint, this PHEV thing is all lip service. They say they are for it, but don’t help with funding. Personally, I don’t think the Dems will be any better. If, as Kent says, the money comes with strings attached, then maybe there shouldn’t be any government money. I just don’t know the right answer here. I DO know that our government is not much help.  
   
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    Neutron Flux Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    What Kent is forgetting is we have no viable cost effective method for mass producing this technology in the US today on the scale required to meet the demands required to significantly reduce our foreign energy independance. They may not need a lot of money now to develope the existing batteries, but we sure would benefit from investment in infrastructure & processes as well as developing our own facilities for mining the neccessary raw materials where available. Almost all aspects of producing Lithium Ion batteries are done off shore, which is fine as long as there are no geo-political problems interupting supply. A few DOD contracts with the right terms (domestic production located close to Auto Mfg facilities) would help infuse capital neccessary to build the Mfg. facilities needed. As previously stated in another post, based on the size of this country & its potential & proven benefits & the cost of the Iraq war, I do not feel 1 billion investment over the next 10 years is too much to ask, after all the Japanese are spending 250 million in the next 5 years. Although one of the Chairmen on this Committee, Nick Lampson is from Tx. (big oil) I hope its influence will not detract from the national benefits this technology could provide to everyone. The ability to regulate the grid without having to build more power plants & transmission lines resulting in cheaper power and improved competetive stance for Mfg. National Security implications should clearly speak for themselves (Petroleum oil reserve et al)and the ability to quit funding those who desire to kill or convert us make this a most worth while investment in our future. I encourage all to submitt their comments to the sub committee on line at: http://www.science.house.gov/contact/contact_generalform.htm & reference the Oct. 03 hearing by the Energy & Environment Subcommittee in your comments as I have done.  
    
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    OptimisticMF Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    Rashiid,

    I take offense to your statement:

    “President Bush is the biggest moron to have ever lead this nation of ours”.

    Based on his record, I don’t think he’s done much “leading”. More like prodding from behind with the sharp stick of fear…  
    
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    Neutron Flux Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    I agree with Optimistic MF, I have felt prodded by GW every since he took office to the point it hurts to sit down. It was because of him I left the R.Party I joined when 18. His open borders, prod the working man approach has really worked wonders for national security. Too bad our troops die while Al Qaida is welcomed in acorss the US borders. Got to love that virtual fence!  
    
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    OhmExcited Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 2:59 pm

    Former CIA director James Woolsey had a good talk recently about the need to make oil not go away entirely, but no longer be a strategic commodity. Worth watching:

    http://fora.tv/fora/showthread.php?t=1414

    Salt used to be prior to refrigeration, because it was the only means of preserving meat. People fought wars over it. Refrigeration didn’t make salt go away, but made the identity and ownership of the producers irrelevant.  
    
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    Jeff M Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    Folks, sorry if this is a rehash for those who have read my posts in other threads… but…

    This administration is the admin of big oil and gas. The President is an oil man, his VP is an oil man, his Sec. of State was an exec at Chevron which named an oil tanker after her (since renamed), and ex-oil industry lobbyists with no scientific education/training were put in charge of editing government research on global warming.

    So the current admin is not going to do anything that will hurt their friends in big oil/gas. They have no problem granting federal money for research and support of corn based ethanol, and hydrogen fuel cells… neither hurts big oil even though it makes it seem like they are doing something. Corn based ethanol uses plenty of energy from oil/gas to make it from powering the equipment to plow the fields, plant, harvest, hydrocarbon based fertilizers, energy to heat the brew to ferment it, then more heat to distill it, and more energy still to transport it as ethanol can’t be piped via existing pipelines. Hydrogen is no threat as hydrogen is not an energy source itself (it’s not like you can drill and then pump it out of the ground, it just doesn’t exist in it’s free form on earth) but a means to store energy. And the best source of hydrogen is not water (H2O) but natural gas (CH4), not to mention hydrogen needs to be compressed (energy) and transported.

    Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV’s) (with or without an onboard generator as a range extender) are a threat however to big oil (as well as to dealership and car maker profits but that’s another story). Only 3% of electric power nationally comes from oil and 19% from natural gas (these numbers from the book “Plug-in Hybrids” by Sherry Boschert). And those plugging in at home or work will be driving by the gas stations. Even the oil/gas used to generate electricity will use less of it to drive father as the power companies can generate it more efficiently than in a conventional vehicle with an internal combustion engine (ICE) which is only 25% efficient.

    It will interesting to see though how much the change in the administration come Jan. 2009 will really make though in energy policy… corn based ethanol has been a real boondoggle for the mid western economies.  
    
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    wow Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    We should just pass a law; any vehicle with MSRP over $40K should be mandated to have at least 10-mile EV range or else be subject to a lack-of-battery tax. Let the richies in this country pay for the first millions of units and let the economies of scale slide down to the rest of us Sounds communist though.  
    
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    Mark Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 4:55 pm

    Japan has it right, spend tons of money now to research into renewable fuel sources then to wait till the last fucking minute, which is what the Bush Admin is doing.

    Because almost all members of the Bush Admin are Oil people, they’d rather see the North American Economy go all to hell before they loose money from lack of oil use.  
    
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    Estero Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    Lyle, you are allowing this website to become a political forum. Shame on you!

    There are so many more important Volt, E-Flex and PHEV issues to discuss. If you allow the politics to continue unchecked, you’re going to start losing your audience!  
    
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    kent beuchert Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    We are NOT spending hundreds of billions to secure Iraqi oil. That oil was secure for global markets even before we toppled Hussein. In fact , it was to be expanded by French and German contracts signed only weeks before the invasion. Had we wanted to secure Iraqi oil we wouldn’t have invaded, now would we? You’re getting your desert wars confused. Desert Storm was fought to secure Middle Estern oil from the clutches of Hussein. That was fought by another Pres Bush, the elder. Let’s also quit telling tall tales and misrepresenting what we are doing in Iraq, which with 90% of the insurgents from places outside Iraq cannot conceivably be characterized as a “civil war.”
    I would suggest that this site
    stop allowing political propaganda and
    personal political viewpoints to contaminate the subject matter. I don’t want to read about anyone’s religious beliefs, or simpleminded political beliefs. Take your opinions to a website that does.  
    
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    Steven B Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Straight up: Oil is bad for the US economy. It forces undesirable trade imbalances with nations we don’t like. It’s more expensive in every way than we would prefer it to be. It’s also running out. Many specialists believe that peak-oil has already occured and we won’t be able to reduce the price without reducing demand drastically, and with the growth of the Chinese and Indian economies, that won’t be easy, if at all possible. Issues of pollution, energy independence, consumer economics, and growth of domestic renewable energy production are all drivers for the movement towards electric cars, including BEV’s, RxEV’s, and PHEV’s. It’s so tied with everyday economics that it is also integrated with public policy choices. It is a practical, economic, as well as political issue. The promise of salvation from EV’s, including the Volt, as well as Tesla, etc., that it is a political issue, because refusing to believe in the promise has severe consquences.  
    
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    AES Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    As someone whose life and work is financed by US government science grants, I’m inclined to agree that the amount spent on the military is – and has always been – vastly disproportionate compared to the amount spent on other concerns.

    Having said that, a couple points:

    1) The US military can benefit from advanced battery technology just as much as the automakers. Examples: silent combat vehicles, high power mobile communications equipment, unmanned airplanes, etc, etc.
    2) Despite the negative reaction to a couple of Lyle’s recent posts, I think it’s silly to take them at face value. One of the good things about an interactive website is that it provokes discussion.  
    
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    Rashiid Amul Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    Estero and Kent, some of these comments may seem political but we are all still talking about the Volt and battery technology. We talk down about the government because they are of no help (so it seems) when it comes to advancing battery research. I understand your views Kent that you don’t like government support. That comment can be construed as political. I’m sorry that you guys don’t like this and the idea is not to scare people away. We are expressing our point of view, but always with the Volt in mind. It is important to all of us on this site to get PHEVs into the marketplace as soon as possible. For me, I see the government as more of a hindrance than a help. I meant no offense bringing these things up.  
    
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    Rashiid Amul Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:06 pm

    One more thing. Let’s not forget the title of this particular section: “Japanese Government Pledges $215 Million USD to Develop Lithium-ion Batteries for PHEVs” This is a political story. So politics here is fine, perhaps not in other parts of gm-volt.com. Lyle, you are doing a great job. I check this site all day long, everyday. I value all of your comments and have learned much.  
    
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    Lyle Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    Colleagues
    My goal here was merely to point out that the Japanese government is willing to outspend the U.S. government 10 to 1 on PHEV research.

    We all want the Volt, and so does GM, that’s exactly why Denise Gray from GM attended the House hearing today.

    The batteries are new and very expensive, government subsidies to consumers and corporations will expedite their arrival.

    A123 has 100 million in funding, don’t you think another 100 million will help them?

    As far as peoples politics views, we all have them, and we can all learn from each other. I appreciate all the passionate comments good or bad, that’s what social media is all about. There are no rules, just collective ideas.

    We can use this site as a source of grass roots action to help propel the Volt into being. Largely I started the site as way we the public could push GM along in developing the car by showing our enthusiasm and keeping the process transparent.

    GM wants government dollars. As has been pointed out, a year ago they recommended 500 million of them for battery research.

    We can help them get what they need.  
    
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    Drake Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Kent – First of all, I am as Free-Market a kind of guy as you can get, but some technologies just require a kick-start from Government. Take the atomic bomb, for example. I don’t think anything but the Manhattan project could have created 2 atomic bombs, with 1940s technology, in only 5 years. Only 5 years…with slide rules.

    While I don’t see battery technology as such a large hurdle as the atomic bomb, I do see a lot of improvements that needs to be made in the current level of battery technology (ex: the millions of 18-wheelers that deliver all of our goods to us need to be able to do so without oil). More money in the loop means more minds are working on this problem. All we need is a handful of good ideas to make this technology the gold standard for transportation. One of the best ways to promote and advance PHEV technology, in my opinion, will be massive tax breaks of the vehicles themselves. Get the factories humming, and people demanding them, and efficiencies will arise, costs will go down, quality will improve, etc.

    Concerning the original post- I want to be proud of my country, but times like this make doing so very hard. Japan’s GDP is $4.20 trillion/year. The United State’s GDP is $13.06 trillion/year. Our GDP is roughly 3 times larger than Japans, so their commitment of $215 million is equivalent to a U.S. investment of $645 million. But instead we invest $20 million…

    I can only pray that our next President will not be owned by the oil companies. Sorry guys, I try to keep my posts as non-political as possible, but I feel this statement to be true. There is no logic to what is currently going on currently. None.

    P.S. In a true Free Market, worthwhile technologies would not be squash, discredited, or otherwise unfairly maligned by outside forces.  
    
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    OhmExcited Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 6:57 pm

    I have to laugh every time someone says we need an “Apollo Program” for energy in this country. The Apollo Program produced technology and results and, yes, it cost a lot of money. The problem with alternative energy is not technology. Much of that technology already exists in the laboratory and beyond. The challenge is getting that technology mass produced at a lower cost so that it competes with existing technology already widely in use (i.e. the internal combustion engine).  
    
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    AES Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 8:00 pm

    FYI, ABG just ran a story on a similar topic:

    “http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/03/gm-and-johnson-controls-say-the-government-must-help-develop-nex/

    “GM and Johnson Controls say the government must help develop next-gen batteries”

    What they may be saying is that while batteries currently exist that can fulfil the midterm goals of organizations like USCAR, further improvement is going to require a lot of basic research on fundamental things like electroytes, electrodes, etc. Don’t forget, A123 and lithium iron phosphate cells as a whole are ultimately derived from scientific discoveries that were made in universities. In general, universities may derive money from patent licensing of their inventions, but a lot of the money for the actual, initial research often comes from the National Science Foundation.

    NSF funding is already severely compromised. If a basic battery researcher could land a DARPA grant, that would be great. Saft already has ties to hybrid military vehicle development:

    http://www.army-technology.com/projects/shadow/  
    
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    O.Jeff Says:
    October 3rd, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    I think it is wrong to fund research like Japan is doing. This is a waste of money. It will not produce any results. I don’t think the existing U.S. battery coalition has produced anything of substance.

    The better approach would be to create demand for the end product. In other words, the government should dramatically increase gasoline taxes and use the tax increases to fund very substantial ($4-6,000) rebates to purchasers of battery electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles.

    With these stable and predictable incentives in place, the manufacturers and battery suppliers will be able to finance whatever research they feel is necessary to make the products.

    I think we could replace a good chunk of our automotive fleet in 10 years if such policies were in place.

    As it is, I think the Volt is very likely to become the “new Prius” just as soon as it goes on sale. Everyone who might have considered a Prius will have the Volt at the top of their list. Moreover, I think virtually every Prius owner may be a candidate for an upgrade to a Volt.  
    
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    wow Says:
    October 4th, 2007 at 6:52 am

    O.Jeff,
    There are allot of poor people and small businiesses in this country who would get crushed by higher fuel taxes. While I think tax rebates for plugin cars is a good idea, we need to find a way to fund that from the rich folk…  
    
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    omegaman66 Says:
    October 5th, 2007 at 1:39 pm

    What kent beuchert said in his first paragraph!  
    
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    law Says:
    October 11th, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    215 million isn’t much either, the USA needs to end this war, reduce the military budget from what more then a trillion to only 300 billion, and put 100 billion into research each year that will directly or indirectly lead to our oil independence in the future.

    What happened to us? What’s wrong with this country?  
    
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