AND 
EXCLUSIVE: Interview With Charles Gassenheimer, Vice-Chair of Ener1, EnerDel Lithium-Ion Battery Parent Company
As we have previously discussed, the U.S. government awarded research grants to 5 U.S. top lithium-ion battery producers for developing plug-in electric car battery packs. We have had previous discussions with executives from A123 as well as Compact Power Inc., the two companies with Chevy Volt contracts.
Now, I had the chance to chat with Mr. Charles Gassenheimer. He is the Vice-Chairman of Ener1, which is the parent company of EnderDel, one of the remaining three companies who are getting government grants. They have been in the news lately with their claim to the $1500 battery pack (more on that later). Some funding for the research is also coming directly from GM through the U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium (USABC).
At the end of this post you can hear the entire audio of our discussion.
Mr. Gassenheimer tells us that Ener1 owns 80.5% of EnerDel, which is based in Indianapolis, Indiana and has 42 employees.
He clarifies that the government announcement is actually a Phase 2 purchase order from the big 3 automakers to buy cells from EnerDel. He also noted that EnderDel is the only one who has actually delivered cell samples to the USABC for testing at one major national laboratory.
He also indicates that when the cells were tested, they met all 30 end of life targets for the big 3, including cycle life, thermal performance, and power and energy density, the most important areas. He further tells us that the cells actually exceeded thermal performance expectations by 50%.
Specially, by thermal performance, he noted that EnerDels cells never heat up above 33 degrees C, indicating that they only need to be air-cooled as opposed to his competitors (which can get to 70-90 degrees C) which require more expensive liquid cooling.
EnderDels cell use lithium titanate in a spinel structure for the anode and a manganese spinel structure for the cathode. He feels this recipe produces a tremendous amount of efficient power, that doesn’t requires as much voltage, for example, as A123s, and is more power dense.
He clarifies that the EnerDel $1500 battery pack price widely discussed, is actually for a hybrid vehicle (HEV), not a PHEV. The PHEV pack pricing has not been announced yet and could be more expensive. He also tells us the $1500 lihtium-ion HEV battery is cheaper than the typical NiMh pack of $4000.
He expects to have his HEV battery packs in cars in 2009, and admits that EnderDel has been in discussion with several car companies he wont publicly name.
He also admits EnerDel was one of the initial 13 companies making a proposal to GM 11 of whom was not chosen. He says the reason why EnerDel wasn’t chosen was because they didn’t have a PHEV program in place at the time, but they do now. He also noted that EnerDel is a partner with Delphi, but now is in a position where they can bid on their own, and have already developed their own fully integrated and fully operational pack in Indianapolis.
He tells us that Li-ion for cars will be a 50 to 60 billion dollar industry, the race is “long from over”, and that the big 3 should want to talk to them.
He thinks the leasing model for li-ion batteries makes sense, to make purchasing a PHEV a positive return on investment for the consumer.
He tells us the EnerDel cells currently cost $500 per kWh, but is confident a goal of $250/kWh can be reached, and theirs will be the most efficiently priced cell on the market.
EnderDels competitive edge is due to manufacturing techniques developed in conjunction with Japanese partner Itochu, and the fact that the cells are made in the United States in Indianapolis. He feels his company will avoid the excess cost of putting Asian-made batteries on a boat to get to Detroit. He noted A123s manufacturing base is in China, CPIs in Korea, and Saft/Johnsons in France.
He says EnerDel plans to install their current packs in cars within the next 3 months to do testing, but wont say whose cars they’re going in. Very interestingly he expects to be in a position to sign a contract with a car company “before the end of the year”.
He says using li-ion in HEV will increase mpg because of its power, including amping highway driving, and expects impressive data. He also mentions putting the packs in a Prius.
In terms of risk of thermal runaway, he feels EnerDels cells avoid this by having a flat pancake shape and specifics of chemistry.
He mentioned his technology is 5 years in the making and is very excited about the massive prospects for the future.
Also we discussed the fact that Ener1 Inc is actually a publicly-traded company, allowing the individual investor the opportunity to play in this burgeoning and soon to be massive market (OTC BB: ENEI)
35 Responses to “EXCLUSIVE: Interview With Charles Gassenheimer, Vice-Chair of Ener1, EnerDel Lithium-Ion Battery Parent Company”
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October 1st, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I’ll listen to the interview in detail later on, but I did some calculations based on a figure on EnerDel’s website, and their energy density looks to be around 70 Wh/kg.
Any chance that Gassenheimer could comment on this? EnerDel has yet to explicitly state their technology’s energy density, unlike the other members of the USABC.
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October 1st, 2007 at 5:52 pm
I have some ENER1 stock, and believe that it is definitely a long-hold investment. And if they can get the price of their batteries down to $250/Kw-h, then I’ll be banking. Woo-hoo!
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October 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
The energy density of 70Wh/kg is consistent with the use of Lithium Titanate Spinel (LTO) on the anode. This is a great, stable, low resistance anode, but it takes away ~1 volt from the cathode’s potential, thus erroding the cell’s overall energy density. The real benefit is that it is a very stable, high cycle life chemistry. The manganese spinel on the cathode is one of the best matches with the LTO anode, so EnerDel has a favorable position from which to compete. Exciting times.
Herman Wiegman
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October 1st, 2007 at 5:54 pm
I too will listen to the interview later on but I really have to disagree with the statement:
“He thinks the leasing model for li-ion batteries makes sense, to make purchasing a PHEV a positive return on investment for the consumer.”
We are still 3 years away from production of the Volt and the cost of the battery packs remains an unknown at this time. So, how in the world can he make such a statement?
I suggest to all that leasing the battery pack makes more of a positive return for EnerDel/Ener1/GM than it does for the consumer!
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October 1st, 2007 at 6:02 pm
I’m completely undecided regarding the buy vs. lease debate around the battery pack. One objection I have is that it makes you grid-bound without the choices of severing yourself from the grid. And by “grid” I mean the connection between the citizen-consumer and big business, not the electrical grid. And one of the benefits of electric drive vehicles is that it allows you the ability to break your bind to the grid, if you have the resources to do it (specifically an off-grid home with solar or wind power, along with electrical storage). But grid-independence is never absolute, and the idea is kind of uni-bomberish anyways, but it would be nice to truly own your vehicle instead of being bound to Big Oil, Big Auto, and the utilites. Again, I’m undecided.
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October 1st, 2007 at 6:16 pm
There are many who are undecided regarding the buy vs. lease of the battery pack. I’m just NOT one of them.
Those in GM, A123, EnerDel and others who are talking about the lease option are no dummies. They know very well that if they can throw that idea up against the wall and it sticks, they have a “cash cow” beyond their wildest dreams. They would not even be talking about leasing if they didn’t see where it would make them lots of profits!
If I am ever given a choice between a Volt priced under $30k including a purchased battery pack or one priced $4k less with a leased the battery pack, it is a no brainer for me!
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October 1st, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Just for comparison purposes, the energy density of A123’s M1 cells is 108 Wh/kg:
(3.3V)*(2.3Ah)=7.59Wh
(7.59Wh)/(0.07kg)=108 Wh/kg
The 32 series being used in the PHEV Saturn Vue, as well as the Volt, is supposed to have higher energy density than this. The cooling and packaging technology might add a bit of weight and bring the gross battery pack weight down a bit, but nowhere near as bad as 70Wh/kg.
Just to show how I got the calculation for 70Wh/kg:
Enerdel’s site has a figure showing the relative mass and volume of a conventional NiMH pack for HEVs compared with that of a hypothetical pack built using Enerdel cells. If you assume that this is a pack from something like a Prius, the NiMH cells can hold ~45Wh/kg. So this 36kg NiMH pack must hold 1.62 Wh. If the Enerdel pack holds the same amount of energy using only 23kg, (1620Wh)/(23kg)= ~70Wh/kg.
I applaud Enerdel’s research into novel titanates, but despite the long life, low cost, and high power, this doesn’t seem like the most competitive technology out there. A Volt pack using this technology would weigh over 500 pounds.
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October 1st, 2007 at 6:45 pm
The leasing option , if it occurs, will be just that : an option. Therefore I believe there is no rational reason to object or applaud the idea. As for the claim that leasing ties you to the manufacturer, I’ve got news for you : you are ALWAYS tied to the manufacturer. Most parts you will buy for replacement have to come from the manufacturer. And I’m not so sure that other companies wouldn’t offer replacement battery packs for the VOLT. And finally, if the batteries outlast the car, what difference does any of this make?
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October 1st, 2007 at 6:51 pm
70Wh/kg is not good – equivelent to NiMH.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride_battery
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October 1st, 2007 at 7:00 pm
If leasing is an option, as Kent Beuchert claims, then that is fine; each customer can exercise the option appropriate for his/her situation. My only concern is when leasing the battery pack becomes a requirement and the only way to purchase a Volt.
My opposition to leasing is the many “terms and conditions of a lease”. It has nothing at all to do with being tied to the manufacturer.
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October 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Glad to see A123 has some competitors.
Lyle, I noticed the “wait list” link. Any chance we could get a running tab? I think people woudl be most interested to see how many out there are truly interested in this car. Thanks for the work.
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October 1st, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Before I spawn a monster with the 70Wh/kg estimate, on the off-chance that Enerdel’s model is using Cobasys’ large-format NiMH cells as the comparison, this would give their cells an energy density of ~86Wh/kg.
That’s giving Enerdel the maximum benefit of the doubt, though. At 86Wh/kg, the cells would be roughly equivalent to the gross energy density of Hymotion PHEV packs, but those packs are already heavily coddled, padded and protected to make up for being in the most impact-prone part of the car. A center-mounted pack from an OEM carmaker would be far lighter and more energy dense.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 1:29 am
I’m pretty sure GM has said leasing of the battery pack, if offered, would be an option, not a requirement.
Until we know the numbers for outright purchase vs. the leasing terms, and what you believe the future holds, it’s unknown which may be a better option…
If the numbers are right, a lease may make better sense for a couple reasons. First is, assuming that the batteries used have the conventional Li-Ion trait of losing charging capacity over time, possibly as much as 30% decrease over time, being able to change out the battery pack for new ones after the lease expires may be worthwhile just to keep the range. Second, prices are likely to decrease for the same capacity, and density could go up, for the newer packs available down the road. We could actually see the battery pack become a commodity, hence not single sourced, and we’ll be able to shop around.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 8:41 am
Thanks, AES, for the mathmatical insights in your posts. But cost must also be factored in. Say we choose between 70Wh/kg and 107Wh/kg. And we want a 16 KWH battery.
So we choose between a 350 lb pack that costs $750 per KWH and costs $12,000 or a pack that weighs 500 lbs and costs $8000 dollars. And if the A123 costs more, the scale is tipped in favor of the cheaper but heavy battery.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 9:32 am
I wonder what the true costs & weight numbers will be once they factor in the entire control & cooling system. EnerDel can be air cooled and the others require complex water cooling with pumps etc. More to break!
Overall, the EnerDel system’s more simplistic cooling & control system should reduce weight, cost and complexity when compared to the higher power alternatives. Remember, it’s all about balancing the size, weight, power, energy, life and complexity of the entire system, not just the battery packs.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 9:34 am
Most important of all is system cost.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 10:52 am
If it’s actually only $1500, then there’s no reason to lease it. However, they should work out some battery exchange / recycling program.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 11:13 am
$1500 is for HEV battery packs not PHEV or RxEV.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 11:57 am
Questions to consider if the question is to lease or not to lease: 1) What is the length of terms & will end user be penalized for extra charge cycles beyond one per day 2) If all battery companies have leased batteries on the market where is their incentive to continue to improve the tech & put better batteries on the market? Do they really want to buy back a bunch of obsolete batteries before they are the end of their life cycle 3) Are batteries going to be installed so it is cost effective to replace them or remove them if integrated into the body of the car for structural protection?
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October 2nd, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I have my own concerns about leasing. I agree with Neutron Flux. What will the terms be? They could possibly kill me because of having to charge up twice a day Mon-Fri. It will be interesting to see how they work the lease, if they have one at all. No point in debating it too much now, since we don\’t have a car yet. However, if someone at GM is reading this, I would prefer not to have a lease. 100 miles a day will cost me heavily if the lease is based on charges, mileage, etc.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Another important consideration is the difference that cell format can make in terms of thermal management, energy density and eventual overall cost.
EnerDel seems to have chosen either a laminated “pouch”-like format, or a prismatic format because they’re lightweight, good for heat dissipation, and are easy to manufacture. The cells might generate heat, but it just doesn’t build up the way it would in a cylindrically-wound cell. They probably get their power advantage mostly from the cell format as well, given the large surface area of the electrode, and easy current collection.
Some concerns:
1)These formats can result in lower energy density (on top of the poorly conductive titanate).
2) As far as I know, laminate and prismatic cells don’t have a mechanism for venting the gas that evolves during charging and discharging. Is EnerDel going to need sophisticated computer-controlled charging to minimize the formation of gas, or does their chemistry experience very little gas formation to begin with? This is a VERY crucial question.
3) Cooler temperatures can help extend cell calendar life, regardless of actual use. So saying that the EnerDel cells will only need passive thermal management isn’t neccesarily true. All packs will need some degree of “coddling”, and unfortunately, liquid-cooling is the most effective. BTW, liquid cooling isn’t much more complicated than the basic radiator that’s already in the car.
4) Mechanical stress – both point stress and twisting stress. Laminate cells are very sensitive to mechnical forces, and you have to design the battery back’s enclosure and “coddling” to account for this. This gains back at least some of the weight that was lost by eliminating the cylindrical cell’s heavy metal can.
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October 2nd, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Been reading all the comments and heard the interview. This company sounds like something I might like to invest in. Assuming that this company gets their battery in GM cars, what kind of upside dod you think the stock will have? All the other companies are private so there is really nothing to compare with or is there?
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October 2nd, 2007 at 10:51 pm
The only reason to lease would be if it’s really cheap, because of a large rebate when the “Used Cells” are turned in for recycling of the materials. However that could be considered for buying a new replacement battery as well.
Yee GadS ! I sure hope this stuff happens without big oil being able to push it’s super greedy nose in.
I also hope that the car is called Volt but not sold under the Chevy brand or thru the Chevy dealer network. The service support will have to be entirely different and mixing the two sets of technologies would be un-imaginable. I drive a hybrid now and let me tell you the service department are a mess.
Set up service centers that are truly plug and play for repairs. The cars are so simple, all components being truly drive by wire. You could sell them on the INTERNET exclusively and really cut the costs (the old boys networks would never allow this sadly)
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October 2nd, 2007 at 11:07 pm
MacAttack,
Certainly they won’t get the nod in the first iteration at least. A123 has the firm inside track and EnerDel did not make the cut. Of those that didn’t make the cut JCISaft has connections with the company, are involved with the VUE plug-in project, and are an outside chance possible supplier long term for other future E-Flex vehicles as well.
JCISaft is publicly traded and A123’s Chinese sub (who will likely do most of the actual manufacturing) is publicly traded CBAK.
Personally I’m long several of the battery players. Most heavily into CBAK but also ABAT, JCI, and even AltairNano. I may have to look into EnerDel as well. As a group I have great confidence that they will do well (and two have been twofers for me in a very short time) but predicting which will take off when in which market segment is beyond anyone’s crystal ball. Obviously I am guessing that CBAK is the most sure thing and only partly because of its A123 connection, but I could be wrong. A basket of investments in this segment may be prudent.
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October 3rd, 2007 at 9:24 am
I\’m still trying to figure out why they can\’t air cool the a123 cells. I hooked my a123 dewalt pack to my cordless weed wacker and ran the batteries from full charge down to dead in under 5 minutes. The pack temperature was pretty much the same as ambient. With no cooling system at all, and A load that is well beyond what would be experienced in A phev, they still did just fine.
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October 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pm
[quote comment="9562"]I\’m still trying to figure out why they can\’t air cool the a123 cells.[/quote]
It isn’t so much a matter of keeping temperatures under control during charge/discharge, as it is a matter of extending the batteries’ calendar life. Lithium ion cells tend to lose a certain percent of their capacity every year regardless of how much they are used. This can be strongly minimized by keeping the cells cool. Now granted, the “decay” of some of the newer chemistries isn’t fully known yet, but GM probably wants to play it safe by cooling the cells below ambient temperatures.
If you chose to cool the EnerDel cells to below ambient as well, you’d need liquid cooling.
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October 3rd, 2007 at 7:02 pm
If they can reach such an accomplishment in only 5 years, imagine what milestones they will reach in 15 years.
If we can keep our eye on the prize we can rid ourselves of oil once and for all. Eventually we will only need to plug in once a week.
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October 3rd, 2007 at 10:35 pm
coal_burner,
The a123 Dewalt pack has 3.3V x 10 cells x 2.3Ah = 75.9Wh. I have a small 3-wheeled EV (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1328) which uses about 240Wh in 2 minutes driving at 30mph. This means it consumes energy roughly 8 times as fast as your weed whacker. A PHEV in electric only mode will consume at least as fast as my EV does. Heat is definitely something to be concerned about.
David
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October 4th, 2007 at 8:55 am
-DDN
Alot of things pull more amps than my weedwhacker does, but not off of such a small battery. If the battery in the volt is big enough to run the car for 40 miles all electric, then depleting the battery pack would take alot longer than 5 minutes. The rate of discharge would be much in the volt than in my tiny comparison.
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October 8th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
DDN
You’re using 240wh/mile at 30mph? That seems kind of high. The converted Priuses are getting much better than that.
http://privatenrg.com/#Bill_Moores
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October 15th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I’m sure it’s been considered, and I have no techinical experience. BUT in the discussion of battery life could you hook-up incoming air to a generator that could store current to re-charge the batterys?
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October 15th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Mike756
>You’re using 240wh/mile at 30mph? That seems kind of high. The converted Priuses are getting much better than that.>
My figures are probably high since it dawned on me when you said that, that I was including the charging inefficiencies. I don’t have my PakTrakr yet which I can then use to do a true battery energy use calculation. The 240wh/mi estimate is my true cost at the meter value.
Coal_burner:
You’re right. A set of these batteries to run a car 40 miles would have a per battery draw much less. I wasn’t thinking of that part. The Tesla Roadster has a very small per cell draw because of its 6800+ cells. Just what you are saying.
kevin fitzgerald:
Anything which takes energy because of the motion of the car will rob the car of momentum and hence the motor will work harder to compensate. The generator will not be even 100% efficient so it will cause a net loss. For example, if you have ever ridden a bicycle with a generator light you know it takes energy to turn the generator: it is harder to pedal. After a ride feel the generator and it will be warmer than the air temp. This is part of the lost energy in the generator. One way to recapture energy is in braking. The electric motor can be turned into a generator to slow the car down and put energy into the batteries.
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October 19th, 2007 at 9:47 am
March 24th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
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Chappie Chapman’s Flyfishing Adventures
http://www.tribalsource.com/
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:31 am
ener1 is about to announce something huge. hold on!
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