The Chevy Volt has Toyota shaking in their boots, and making weak arguments why the parallel hybrid is better than the series hybrid design of the Volt. As well, GM has forced Toyota to feebly put out to test limited mileage plug-in Priuses, and to acknowledge that their lithium-ion battery supplier is not yet ready for primetime.
Moving on this momentum Mr. Robert Lutz has another new quote that he gave to the L.A. Times, who also got to meet with him in L.A. (link)
“Five years from now, there will be one technology leader in the world,” Lutz said, “and it will be GM.”
Go get em’ Bob, we’re ready.
This entry was posted on Saturday, September 22nd, 2007 at 10:37 am and is filed under Competitors, PHEV, Politics, Public Opinion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Sep 22nd, 2007 (11:18 am)Why doesn’t GM start taking soft orders or even down payments? $1,000 (fully refundable of course) for reserving your place in line. That ought to shut up the naysayers.
Sep 22nd, 2007 (11:48 am)I hope GM does become the sole automotive technology leader. It’s sad that GM fell behind. Had the EV1 program been allowed to continue, we’d all be a in a very different position right now. The Prius is the only thing that makes Toyota look like a “green” car company. Honda is the most fuel-efficient car company in America, and when it comes down to large vehicles (though they are becomine ever-less popular) GM is the leader in fuel efficiency. But now GM is surging ahead and restoring leadership. Although I would be interested in a two-mode hybrid for mid-size car, like an Impala for example, by the looks of things soon enough E-flex will be offered in that range. I don’t believe in the “hydrogen economy” but I do believe in electricity plus biofuels. And I think GM is liable to lead the way. Something I find kind of funny and sad, though, is that Toyota is playing up their Prius HV as if it’s somehow more advanced than anyone else, even though it’s not scheduled for production, but GM is planning on releasing the VUE two-mode hybrid plug-in in 2009. Just my thoughts.
Sep 22nd, 2007 (12:05 pm)Parallel?
Please correct your labeling!
A parallel hybrid is the “ASSIST” type, where the motor & engine are physically integrated and operate in parallel fashion.
A series-parallel hybrid is the “FULL” type, where the engine and multiple motors are not directly connected. Instead, a power-split device is used to allow for a variety of interactions.
Sep 22nd, 2007 (12:27 pm)I was astounded at the dysfunctional actions of Toyota over the past five weeks,
which clearly was the result of GM getting all the green attention, once most of the
greenies got over their anti-GM bias and
initial silly skepticism. I never thought I would see Toyota, which has garnered a reputation of never making mistakes (which has been strained with massive recalls over the recent past) sit there and daily contradict their previous day’s statements concerning plug-in batteries, plug-in miles, year of introduction, etc. I was
absolutely astounded to see this giant
automaker stumble and fumble day after day.
Their defense of their hybrid system and obvious attack on the E-Flex is something I don’t ever remember happening in the auto world in the past 50 years. One thing is obvious when it comes to competing plug-in designs – the E-Flex is just exactly that – flexible. We all know that the way ahead
is electric and batteries. The E-Flex can morph into such a future form effortlessly, while other hybrid types (including GM’s own dual mode) must be completely re-engineered. In fact, it’s conceivable that these E-Flex cars will be refitted by their owners with other types or simply more batteries in the future without having to buy another vehicle. For example, suppose a battery came alng that can tolerate a depth of discharge to zero and a charge to 100%. Suddenly the same sized battery pack can utilize more of the 16 kilowatthours of capacity and the range immediately becomes 70+ miles of all-electric driving. With an 70+ mile range, I would see very little reason or need to go all-electric. Would you?
Sep 22nd, 2007 (6:14 pm)GM, your past policy of making cars no one wanted to buy has really hurt you. Toyota passed you out on your own home turf. Shame on you. Now you have the opportunity to change the world. I have no doubt you will. The movie “Who killed the electric car?” really hurt you. But you can overcome that. You are truly #1. Now build the Volt right and go beat the nuts and bolts off of Toyota.
And once you are ahead, do everything to stay there. Make good reliable products that people want. In other words, be cool again. Good luck. BTW, where is the waiting list for the Volt? We need it now.
Sep 22nd, 2007 (8:13 pm)If GM can pull it off, E-Flex will be one of the most revolutionary advancements in automotive history.
Rashiid – have you heard about the new movie coming out “Who saved the electric car?” It’s being made by the same guy that made “Who killed the electric car?” and will feature GM promiently.
Talk about a freaking amazing turnaround in the works. I hope Bob Lutz will keep his eye on the prize and not screw this up.
Sep 23rd, 2007 (12:15 am)Talk is cheap.
Sep 23rd, 2007 (12:25 am)While “Who Killed the Electric Car?” focused on GM and their EV1, the story is almost the same for the other automakers, including Toyota with their Rav4-EV (which in some ways was better than the Ev1). All the automakers killed their EV plans as soon as they, in conjunction with big oil and the Bush admin (same as the other 2, Andy Card game from GM, most from big oil interests), got the CARB to gut the ZEV mandate. Volvo was still working on theirs in 1999 when Ford bought them and had Volvo can their program.
plug-in electric with series drive systems, like the Volt, are not revolutionary or original, but GM was indeed the 1st major automaker to announce one. Since then Volvo and Nissan have both also announced similar concepts to the Volt, with some key differences. Volvo and Nissan’s concepts claim an even longer (at least 50%) battery only range, and the Volvo since they are using 4 hub mounted motors, will essentially be an all-wheel-drive vehicle (even better as each wheel is independently powered).
And since as mentioned Volvo is owned by Ford, we should expect to see something from Ford as well.
The race is indeed on! Go GM, and the others! The big loser right now does appear to be Toyota who wants to stick with parallel drive technology. Series drive system is much simpler, and cost effective, and a lot less maint. for the consumer (which means less after sale revenue for the car maker and the dealerships).
Sep 23rd, 2007 (2:18 am)GM has said it doesn’t want to repeat mistakes made during the EV1 project, which I completely understand, but I also hope that they are able to leverage the intellectual property they created during that time, especially with regards to motor technology. Or does a lot of that IP belong to Aerovironment and former GM engineers?
Sep 23rd, 2007 (8:57 am)Jeff, enough of your conspiracy theories! Take it elsewhere!
Sep 23rd, 2007 (12:33 pm)Estero, conspiracy theories? I didn’t say anything about a conspiracy, which implies an alliance. Each operated alone for their own reasons. Big oil because EV’s would reduce demand for their products. Auto companies (and their dealerships, their parts suppliers, etc) because a pure EV has up to 90% fewer moving parts, doesn’t even need oil/filter changes, and thanks to regenerative breaking, brake pads and rotors last significantly longer). The Bush admin, well they were/are made up oil men or those who represent oil interests, as well as ex-auto execs like Andy Card.
And I certainly didn’t say anything that was a theory. None of the info above is a secret (well big oil did funnel money into front organizations to spread mis-info about EV’s just as they have/are doing regarding global warming). They are facts, not theories (though as I indicated above it is a theory if the parties conspired together but that’s a mute point).
And Estero, I wasn’t the one who brought up the movie “Who Killed the Electric Car?”, and if you reread my post above, you’ll see I was actually defending GM as the movie made them the poster boy when the other auto makers (Toyota included) were just as guilty (though at least Toyota ended up selling some of their Rav4-EV’s to lessees, which GM didn’t do).
Sep 23rd, 2007 (12:36 pm)ps: I also recommend the book “Plug-in Hybrids” by Sherry Boschert
Sep 23rd, 2007 (4:14 pm)Another website about EV’s is http://www.evworld.com. They have all kinds of news on electric cars and related technologies. One recent article in there, of some interest in the discussion here, is that there is evidence that Big Oil has been negatively influencing public perception about ethanol and manipulating loopholes in current US Federal energy policy to scam the American public. The laws are poorly written, so you can look the other way on the companies exploiting the opportunity to increase revenue, but the meddling with science is unseemly. It’s similar to the way that Exxon and others recently had been meddling with climate science. Read it, I’m interested with others here think. evworld.com (recent news stories)
Sep 23rd, 2007 (6:05 pm)“and to acknowledge that [Toyota's] lithium-ion battery supplier is not yet ready for primetime.”
Neither is GM’s.
“feebly put out to test limited mileage plug-in Priuses”
Toyota is testing Priuses while GM is testing PR. Yet someone this is a negative for Toyota? As I have said in another post, a shorter range (and hence much lower price) will be a selling point for MANY people.
This is generally a very good side for Volt information. But that kind of crap needs to be held in check or this site will quickly be pegged as a GM viral marketing site (which it probably is).
Sep 23rd, 2007 (6:59 pm)Although I’m really excited to see GM succeed here, I mostly agree with what your saying. Hopefully we see more out of GM than just PR. All indications seem to show GM is serious about putting this to production, but I get a little nervous when I see bilboard and TV ads touting a car that doesn’t even exist yet.
Having said that, I will say that it has been interesting to see Toyota squirm around a little bit about this topic. They have enjoyed at least a decade of “technology leadership” with the Prius, and they seem to have been caught a little off gaurd with the excitement around series hybrids. I wouldn’t count Toyota out though… they won’t give up their leadership position easily.
It will be fun to watch to see how this develops over the next 3 years. Either way, I think we need to refrain from Toyota bashing and hyperbole such as “Toyota shaking in their boots.”
Still love the site Lyle (but let’s keep some objectivity here)
Sep 23rd, 2007 (7:07 pm)Re: GXT’s conspiracy theory that this is a GM viral marketing site, all I have to say is watch the podcast… dude, there is no way GM is running this site (no offense Lyle)
Sep 23rd, 2007 (8:06 pm)Counterpoint to GXT-
““and to acknowledge that [Toyota’s] lithium-ion battery supplier is not yet ready for primetime. Neither is GM’s.”
Not true – GM’s suppliers already supply lithium ion cells that have been used for rigorous automotive applications, e.g. Hymotion PHEV conversions, and CPI’s Pikes Peak racers. Whereas Toyota has publically acknowledged that their technology isn’t safe yet.
One could also argue that GM is ahead given its decades-long record of developing working prototypes of series hybrid technology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#EV1_series_hybrid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_XP-883
http://www.geocities.com/joelado/Photos/stirlec1.jpg
re: GM-Volt objectivity, I tend to agree with everything Lyle puts forth, and he’s done an amazing job of getting the inside scoop on things. Having said that, you’re right that sticking to the facts is probably the better road to take, despite the fact that this is obviously a pro-GM fansite.
By the way, I think this site is a significant step above official company blogs, where they do a lot of censoring of posts, and don’t really use the site to engage in meaningful discussion with the public.
Sep 23rd, 2007 (10:09 pm)People, I think we need to focus here and try to be happy for what is going on. Sure, the Volt has not gone to production yet, and will not for a few more years, but it is clear that GM has dedicated itself to this car and to its underlying technology (E-Flex).
I see all of the Volt billboards and advertisements as a VERY good thing. They are preparing the general public for the plug-in and EV revolution. Sure we know about PHEVs, but the general public does not. The average American/European/Canadian/etc. needs flashy advertisements and sexy-looking prototypes to get excited about a car. I would dare say that most of the regulars on this site would not give a damn what the Volt looked like, as long as it stays true to its technology (series hybrid, decent battery range, etc). THe general public, however, needs more. One of the criticisms in “Who killed the electric car?” was that GM advertised the EV1 in a very cold, boring manner. The Volt, on the other hand is sexy. It is being marketed as a “cool” vehicle. This is ultimately a very good thing for advancing PHEV tech.
The more GM talks about the Volt through interviews, ads, etc. the more they are binding themselves to actually building the car. I mean just imagine for a moment that in 3 years GM says to the affect “Sorry…the battery technology never materialized. PHEV technology needs a few more years of study for prime-time use.” That would be GM’s second MAJOR failure. There would be NO recovering from that. The American automobile industry as we know it would die a quick SUV-inducded death as pissed off people leave it forever for Toyota (who will actually have a production-level PHEV).
I feel GM has committed itself. I believe they will release the Volt in three years. There are just too many economic factors in the works for them to pass by this massive payday (and PR resurrection).
For those of you that have not seen “Who killed the electric car?” yet, it may be viewed here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5977085690337730430&q=who+killed+the+electric+car&total=247&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
Sep 23rd, 2007 (10:15 pm)P.S. a GM-funded website would not have popups for “sexy avatars” or “screensavers for men”
Sep 24th, 2007 (8:15 am)Who in their right mind thinks Toyota is not going to beat GM to market with a plugin Prius? If it really takes GM till 2011 to get the Volt out, they deserve to be behind. I’m all for GM being the “Automotive Technology Leader” and all but come on, 2011, are you serious? $10 says that Toyota will absolutely beat GM to market by a year atleast. I’d be amazed if they don’t launch one in ’09. As much as I hate Toyota, I’ll buy the first one to market no matter how ugly I think the Prius is.
Sep 24th, 2007 (9:06 am)First to market first to schmarket. Plugins are the future and the best ones for the right prices will be profitable. There is room for multiple winners. First to market doesn’t mean it will be best to market, no matter which company you are talking about. There will be people who will only buy by brand for their plugin and will wait for it to be available. There will be people who will only by the cheapest plugin and wait for it to get very cheap. There will be people who will only buy the one with the longest EV range. There will be people who will only buy the one with the most cargo space. There will be many vehicles from many car companies. The ones who make it profitable will be the winners. No one company owns this tech.
Sep 24th, 2007 (10:29 am)Toyota may be the first to market with a plug-in, but I seriously doubt they will be the first to market with a series plug in which is the only type I care about. The parallel hybrid setup is too complex for me to want to own and maintain.
Sep 24th, 2007 (10:32 am)I was simply reporting it how I see it. It looks like GM has the upperhand right now over Toyota.
Will that be how it turns out? We’ll have to wait and see.
My main mission is to report the facts as I see them, and try to keep the Volt’s development as transparent and accessible to the public as possible.
And you’re right..it’s not a corporate blog, and since I have no corporate financial backing, well..the ads.
The series/parallel nomenclature is still being debated even by Toyota itself:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/24/toyotas-irv-miller-jumps-into-series-parallel-debate-again-now/
Sep 24th, 2007 (10:48 am)To those who think that a plug-in Prius will be priced a lot lower than the Volt… yes, I’m agree it will probably be lower, but probably not as low as you think. Even though Toyota will likely be using a smaller battery and hence a lower price, it still needs to be significantly bigger than their current battery to get even a 10 mile electric only range, which means more money…
… on top of that, the current Prius parallel hybrid system from my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that it is not capable of driving faster than 25mph on the electric motor alone. So it likely needs in the min. (in addition to a bigger battery) a bigger electric motor and probably a re-engineering, so this is likely to add to cost as well.
Base MSRP for the 2008 Prius is $21k. GM hopes to price the Volt “nicely” under $30k. Let’s say “nicely” means $28k. Let’s also wildly guess that a plug-in Prius would be $25k so the difference is $3k. I’d much prefer to pay the $3k more for a lower maint. cost series hybrid (vs. parallel hybrid) and a 40 mile electric only range (vs. possibly only 10 miles for the plug-in Prius).
Nissan and Volvo are talking 60+ mile electric only range for their plug-in series hybrid concepts, but not only have I not seen a time line for them to possibly reach the US market, the higher range probably means bigger battery and hence a higher price than the Volt.
Sep 24th, 2007 (11:47 am)My comment on Toyota’s blog will probably get censored (they do that a LOT) but here it is for the record:
“”Just for the record, here, we have no idea what’s going on inside General Motors, and further, have nothing to gain by downplaying their successes, and their advances, with hybrid technology. In point of fact, we wish them the best, because we believe that everybody benefits from hybrids, and from hybrid research and technology.”
It’s crucial that GM succeed for a number of reasons. First, it’s made a sincere effort to correct its image and role in the green car scene, and it has some superior technology to contribute.
Secondly, if foreign automakers achieve even greater success than they already have – mostly due to outdated reputations about reliability and economy, as well as trouble with unions – there are going to be disasterous long term results for the American economy. Toyota may have many jobs in America – Irv’s being one of them – but ultimately the flow of most of the cash is going OUT of the country and into banks on foreign soil.
Don’t get me wrong, you shouldn’t buy a lemon to save America, but if it were down to a plug-in Prius vs. a GM Volt, there’s more to consider than just MPG numbers.
As for the whole technology debate: conveniently redefining the Prius as “series/hybrid” doesn’t really help much. If the plug-in HSD engine has to cope with driving the wheels as well as recharging a larger generator, it’s become a jack of all trades, and a master of none. It’ll have to deal with a lot of dynamic load changes no matter what the situation.
re:deep cycling -> Irv, you’re blowing smoke. Deep cycling is a familiar problem to anyone with EV experience, and upgrading a car’s battery pack in size doesn’t alter the problem – or its solutions – one iota. If anything, making the pack larger actually makes the solution somewhat easier, since there are fewer constant cycles that risk depleting the battery. The Prius doesn’t let its tiny pack even get below 80% SOC, because it gets cycled for constant small loads that are proportionally large to the pack size.
re:”hotel loads” – as with houses and hotels themselves, this is a problem that is far better addressed with intelligent insulation and design, rather than the appliance itself. ALL cars’ mpg ratings are made under ideal conditions without unnecessary loads – Prius included! Taking aim at any car’s all-electric range with “hotel loads” is really a bit of a cheap shot, and a hypocritical one at that.”
Sep 24th, 2007 (3:03 pm)> the current Prius parallel hybrid system from
> my understanding (and I could be wrong) is
> that it is not capable of driving faster than
> 25mph on the electric motor alone
42 MPH is the top current electric-only speed.
62 MPH is possible with adjustments to the existing system.
Faster than that, you get quite a bit of electric contribution along with engine activity. So the MPG is still much higher than without that standard setup.
Sep 24th, 2007 (3:26 pm)(typo above, sorry, should be a “with” not “without”)
Anywho, the leadership title will be earned by sales numbers. That means high-volume production, enough to rival other popular vehicles. In other words, at least 100,000 annually.
Sep 25th, 2007 (9:46 pm)Hey john1701a- love your Prius guide man. I can only hope to see such a detailed, and well-put-together guide emerge for the Volt when it goes on sale.
Oct 30th, 2007 (6:57 am)hello…
great post…
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