Comments on: Bob Lutz Discusses Cost of Producing the Chevy Volt http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/ Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:07:32 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Steven B http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7504 Steven B Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:00:22 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7504 E-flex and other plug-in range-extending EV and hybrid designs are going to come from all automakers. We\'ll also soon enough to see what we\'ll consider completely unacceptable gas prices with no solutions to bring them down other than switch to electric cars and biofuels. The currently released E-flex models will be built soon enough, and I\'m guessing that they\'ll be using the A123 Systems batteries. A123 Systems, by the way, are the ones who make the DeWalt powertool batteries. GM is on target with all of this. The Volt is the direct descendant of the EV1 with the range-extender, but a better version of it. The only thing delaying the release is competition between the two battery makers and standard production lag. My money is on the A123 System/Continental AG contract, as well as the 2010 release date. The Volt and it\'s E-flex family are coming, sooner rather than later! E-flex and other plug-in range-extending EV and hybrid designs are going to come from all automakers. We\’ll also soon enough to see what we\’ll consider completely unacceptable gas prices with no solutions to bring them down other than switch to electric cars and biofuels. The currently released E-flex models will be built soon enough, and I\’m guessing that they\’ll be using the A123 Systems batteries. A123 Systems, by the way, are the ones who make the DeWalt powertool batteries. GM is on target with all of this. The Volt is the direct descendant of the EV1 with the range-extender, but a better version of it. The only thing delaying the release is competition between the two battery makers and standard production lag. My money is on the A123 System/Continental AG contract, as well as the 2010 release date. The Volt and it\’s E-flex family are coming, sooner rather than later!

]]> By: Dave G http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7448 Dave G Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:54:25 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7448 jabroni - Besides size and weight, I believe NiMH batteries have other issues: 1) As I understand it, Chevron now owns the patents for NiMH, and they won't allow it to be used in any car that doesn't use gasoline as the main fuel source. 2) I believe NiMH has more issues with self-discharge. For example, if you park it for a month someplace where you can't plug in, I believe the Li/Ion batteries will hold the charge much better. As for other serial hybrids - yes, the concept has been around for a while, and I do remember that some of the EV1s had a range extender (in the trunk as I recall). Yes, if the Volt were here now I would be very tempted to go out and buy one. But this is not about me. We need the masses to buy into this. If GM rushes the car out early, then there will most likely be problems. Once people hear about the problems, they're likely to dismiss the whole concept. So getting the car out earlier may actually delay mass-appeal, which would prolong the problems associated with gas powered cars. If anyone on the design team is reading these posts - please do everything possible to get this car right the first time. A big win early in the game would do wonders for PHEVs, and GM in particular. jabroni – Besides size and weight, I believe NiMH batteries have other issues:

1) As I understand it, Chevron now owns the patents for NiMH, and they won’t allow it to be used in any car that doesn’t use gasoline as the main fuel source.

2) I believe NiMH has more issues with self-discharge. For example, if you park it for a month someplace where you can’t plug in, I believe the Li/Ion batteries will hold the charge much better.

As for other serial hybrids – yes, the concept has been around for a while, and I do remember that some of the EV1s had a range extender (in the trunk as I recall).

Yes, if the Volt were here now I would be very tempted to go out and buy one. But this is not about me. We need the masses to buy into this. If GM rushes the car out early, then there will most likely be problems. Once people hear about the problems, they’re likely to dismiss the whole concept. So getting the car out earlier may actually delay mass-appeal, which would prolong the problems associated with gas powered cars.

If anyone on the design team is reading these posts – please do everything possible to get this car right the first time. A big win early in the game would do wonders for PHEVs, and GM in particular.

]]> By: jabroni http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7435 jabroni Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:01:44 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7435 Dave G: First of all, just let me state for the record that I want the Volt more than any other car I have owned! In fact, if they were available next year, I would buy TWO. NiMH batteries are proven and reliable as evidenced by the hundreds of Toyota RAV4's still on the road. It would take about 300 pounds of NiMH batteries to give the Volt a 40 mile range and I am sure this size of a battery pack would not be an obstacle. Also, remember that the EV1 went over 100 miles a charge on a lead acid pack, so GM knows that the battery technology is sufficient at THIS time. I am unsure why they won't begin the process using either of these two chemistries. Finally, this car is NOT a new design. Did you know that GM had a EV1 serial hybrid back in the 90's that was just like the Volt? You can see it on the web. It was quite the automobile. So really, all GM would have to do is dig up the specs on the EV1 serial hybrid and apply to the Volt. Dave G:

First of all, just let me state for the record that I want the Volt more than any other car I have owned! In fact, if they were available next year, I would buy TWO.

NiMH batteries are proven and reliable as evidenced by the hundreds of Toyota RAV4’s still on the road. It would take about 300 pounds of NiMH batteries to give the Volt a 40 mile range and I am sure this size of a battery pack would not be an obstacle. Also, remember that the EV1 went over 100 miles a charge on a lead acid pack, so GM knows that the battery technology is sufficient at THIS time. I am unsure why they won’t begin the process using either of these two chemistries.

Finally, this car is NOT a new design. Did you know that GM had a EV1 serial hybrid back in the 90’s that was just like the Volt? You can see it on the web. It was quite the automobile. So really, all GM would have to do is dig up the specs on the EV1 serial hybrid and apply to the Volt.

]]> By: Paul http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7416 Paul Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:37:41 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7416 Correction to my earlier post. My link was to a GM blog, not a Mr Lutz blog. http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/ But he does contribute. Correction to my earlier post. My link was to a GM blog, not a Mr Lutz blog.

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/

But he does contribute.

]]> By: Paul http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7412 Paul Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:10:56 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7412 Kent was asking about ways to contact Bob Lutz or provide feedback to him or GM. Apparently Mr Lutz has his own blog: http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/ It appears that Mr Lutz both reads the blog and contributes to it. It may be worth checking out. Kent was asking about ways to contact Bob Lutz or provide feedback to him or GM. Apparently Mr Lutz has his own blog:

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/

It appears that Mr Lutz both reads the blog and contributes to it. It may be worth checking out.

]]> By: voltman http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7409 voltman Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:04:14 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7409 The key to reducing the cost of the battery is reducing the oversizing down from 100%. If they could pull off the 8kwh charging with just 12kwh of batteries, you have cut the oversize to 50% and cut the battery cost by 25%. To do this it would need to charge up to 90% then discharge down to 23% or so. Perhaps they will find that the batteries can take the abuse. Here are some people talking about them on amazon. These guys are quick charging these and draining them all day long building houses. http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-DC300K-Heavy-Duty-Lithium-Ion-Cordless/dp/B000F1KPFO The key to reducing the cost of the battery is reducing the oversizing down from 100%. If they could pull off the 8kwh charging with just 12kwh of batteries, you have cut the oversize to 50% and cut the battery cost by 25%.

To do this it would need to charge up to 90% then discharge down to 23% or so. Perhaps they will find that the batteries can take the abuse. Here are some people talking about them on amazon. These guys are quick charging these and draining them all day long building houses. http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-DC300K-Heavy-Duty-Lithium-Ion-Cordless/dp/B000F1KPFO

]]> By: GXT http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7407 GXT Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:33:54 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7407 I understand that one battery option is more cost effective for GM. But GM should also understand that I (and many others) will likely end up buying the plug-in prius instead as it will be much less expensive. As far as bringing the cost of the battery down via volume, you can do that by selling a lot of cells in fewer cars or fewer cells in more cars. There is NO doubt in my mind that GM will sell more cells if the Volt has a smaller battery. I understand that one battery option is more cost effective for GM. But GM should also understand that I (and many others) will likely end up buying the plug-in prius instead as it will be much less expensive.

As far as bringing the cost of the battery down via volume, you can do that by selling a lot of cells in fewer cars or fewer cells in more cars. There is NO doubt in my mind that GM will sell more cells if the Volt has a smaller battery.

]]> By: Dave G http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7393 Dave G Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:18:38 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7393 jabroni - For the same electrical storage, NiMH batteries are about twice as big and twice as heavy as Li/Ion. Lead acid is even worse. Besides, even if there were no issues with the batteries, you still wouldn't get a car much before 2010. Remember that a serial hybrid is a totally new design. They need to go through a few design iterations and then a whole bunch of testing before it gets good and reliable. Let's give them a couple of years to get it right. We don't want any lemons. jabroni – For the same electrical storage, NiMH batteries are about twice as big and twice as heavy as Li/Ion. Lead acid is even worse.

Besides, even if there were no issues with the batteries, you still wouldn’t get a car much before 2010. Remember that a serial hybrid is a totally new design. They need to go through a few design iterations and then a whole bunch of testing before it gets good and reliable. Let’s give them a couple of years to get it right. We don’t want any lemons.

]]> By: jabroni http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7386 jabroni Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:18:48 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7386 Obviously, if Lutz, the klutz, would consider lead acid or NiMH batteries, then the "unknown" costs of battery technology would be obviated. I want this vehicle now, not in 3 years. Ergo, the first manufacturer who will build such a vehicle gets my hard earned money, and this waffling on GM's part indicates they will NOT be the one. Obviously, if Lutz, the klutz, would consider lead acid or NiMH batteries, then the “unknown” costs of battery technology would be obviated.

I want this vehicle now, not in 3 years. Ergo, the first manufacturer who will build such a vehicle gets my hard earned money, and this waffling on GM’s part indicates they will NOT be the one.

]]> By: Dave G http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7381 Dave G Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:22:06 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/12/bob-lutz-discusses-cost-of-producing-the-chevy-volt/#comment-7381 Matt986 - Yes, I agree. In order to get the initial car reliable, designers need to focus on testing a very limited number of builds. Battery and range enxtender options will come later. Let's put it this way, if the first cars come with many options, and some of these options have problems, the whole line may get a bad name. Then where would we be? Matt986 – Yes, I agree. In order to get the initial car reliable, designers need to focus on testing a very limited number of builds. Battery and range enxtender options will come later.

Let’s put it this way, if the first cars come with many options, and some of these options have problems, the whole line may get a bad name. Then where would we be?

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