Toyota Believes its Parallel Hybrid Approach is Better Than Volts Series Design

31 Responses to “Toyota Believes its Parallel Hybrid Approach is Better Than Volts Series Design”

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   George Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 4:30 pm

   Lyle, I appreciate the informed qualitative response that you have made in telling us why the GM way is better than the Toyota way.

   “Hey pot, this is kettle, you like my black?”
   “Hey kettle, my black is better”
   “Hey pot, you didn’t say why your black is better, that makes my black better than yours!”  
   
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   Steven B Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

   To be honest, if both units use the same technology, I think it is obvious from the diagram that a range-extending EV is superior due to its simplicity. Get into the details and the point is emphasized. In the near future, we want to do whatever is possible to minimize petroleum use. More power from the grid the better. More power from the pump, the worse, for too many reasons to mention. I think Toyota should stop trying to protect its inferior design and provide a range-extending EV of its own. It’s possible to make it cooler, and if not cooler than at least “better for some consumers,” than the Volt. Like a Rx-EV minivan or other some other type of vehicle that GM is not probably going to make a priority. I hate it when people refuse to adapt and instead try to protect their own obsolence. GM did that in the early part of the decade, and now that they’re admitting to their mistakes they’re surging ahead!  
   
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   Mike G. Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 5:01 pm

   Toyota is wrong first of all. They don’t have the batterys and may be hamstrung by legal issues for a few years.

   The serial is NO DOUBT better than the parallel design. For the parallel design the car is useless if the ice motor has trouble, which we all know will eventually happen as ICE motors have 100,000,000 moving parts. Also gas milage will be better with a serial, and the serial technology lends itself to advancing the design engineering of all electric cars so you don’t have to start from scratch when they do become a more viable option.

   Below is a list of all the reason a parallel design is better than a serial.

   1. blank
   2. blank

   Can anyone think of a single reason?  
   
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   kent beuchert Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 6:28 pm

   Apparently Toyota doesn’t realize that GM will be offering a non-serial plug-in hybrid first – the 2009 Saturn Vue Greenline. Not because it’s superior to the serial, but because GM cannot redesign all the vehicles it wants to convert to plug-in
   fast enough. The question is whether GM plans to use the dual mode Saturn as a pathfinder to do the same thing to many of its upcoming dual mode vehicles. If so, those conversions would presumably piggyback on the work done on the Vue and
   could be accomplished at a very fast pace. There may be a bunch of GM plug-ins out there by the time the VOLT appears. Poor, dysfunctional, Toyota. They are also claiming that li ion batteries are dangerous, knowing full well that those used by GM are not. What Toyota needs is a decent third generation lithium ion battery.  
   
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   Brian Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 6:51 pm

   If you look at the slide that compares the two systems (slide 11), you can see that they drew the pictures in approximate relative scale. So the battery and electric motor are bigger on the series hybrid, while the engine is bigger on the parallel hybrid.

   I was not there to hear the presentation, but I will bet that the gist of it was that the battry is smaller in their version, and therefore the system is better. This may be true, but it is obvious to me that their system will use more gasoline than the Volt. To me that makes the Volt better.

   I don’t know how much bigger the Volt’s battery needs to be, but as long as the car comes in under $30k it will blow Toyota out of the water.  
   
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   Apex Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

   Just taking a quick glance at the diagram, it seems that a lot more gas will burnt in the parallel architecture.
   I’ll have to view the whole presentation to see how they explain that their technology is superior.  
   
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   Steve F Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 8:46 pm

   This time around I think GM is very smart. They are working on both serial and parallel plug-in hybrids. My belief is there will be need for both types and each will have strength and weaknesses. Maybe for large SUV and Trucks the parallel maybe best fit and then smaller vehicle use the serial. The main point is that GM is developing technology for both approaches and as the market develops they will be able provide vehicle based on either. As for Toyota they appear to be focusing on only one.  
   
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   voltman Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 8:51 pm

   This definately shows that they are scared.

   Parallel or series, the bigger the battery, the more that grid electricity is used. And we all know that electricity is cheaper and makes less polution.

   I am sure that if someone made a parallel hybrid with 16kwh of a123 batts it would be pretty good too.  
   
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   Tim Says:
   September 4th, 2007 at 9:55 pm

   Let the free market decide. Vote with your wallets…

   Simple or Complex?

   As for me, I believe Toyota is just trying to save face.  
   
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    Pete Says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:33 pm

    If the future is the EV, then the series hybrid is the future. The conversion of an HEV to an EV consists of the removal of the genset and the addition of batteries to increase the AER.  
    
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    Dave G Says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:46 pm

    Actually, I started off 8 months ago thinking that a plug-in Prius would be pretty cool. In fact, I was mildly interested in an aftermarket Prius PHEV battery kit, and was hoping the price would come down.

    Then I found out that the Prius design (parallel hybrid) has such a wimpy electric motor that you would have to drive like an old lady to really use the electric range. Don’t get me wrong – the Prius design seems pretty good. It’s just when you try to plug it in that it starts looking ugly.

    So then I thought, hey – what if someone used a not-so-wimpy electric motor that would power the car by itself at full speed? You wouldn’t even need to connect the gas engine to the wheels.

    Then I found out that other people thought of this long ago, and called this design “serial hybrid”. So I Googled “plug-in serial hybrid”, and that’s when I found out about the Volt, which led me to this site in the first place.

    I would think many others that have ended up on this site followed a similar path.

    So, for Toyota to preach the virtues of a plug-in parallel hybrid – it seems to be insulting peoples intelligence. Why would they do such a thing? I’m sure it will come back to bite them later.  
    
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    Drake Says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:49 pm

    GM is showing true genius by, for the most part, skipping the parallel layout.

    Here are some advantages that I can see for going with the serial laytou:

    1) The vehicle will be lighter, and therefore ablet to travel further in electric mode.

    2) The vehicle will be less complex so fewer things will go wrong and problems will be more easily diagnosed and repaired.

    3) The vehcile will cost less.

    4) The vehicle will, potentially, use less gasoline.

    The ONLY downside to a serial system that I can think of would be acceleration power. The EV1, however, had some massive acceleration power so I doubt this will be an issue. Also, the the EV1 is a full generation behind the Volt.

    I give up. There’s no reason that I can see to go with a parallel system like Toyota is currently using. I really see Toyota giving up the #1 spot after the Volt comes out. Good job GM- please keep you eye on the prize.  
    
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    Dave G Says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 10:59 pm

    Oh yeah – and Toyota conveniently leaves the transmission off their diagram, so the plug-in serial hybrid looks bigger and more expensive.  
    
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    Dave G Says:
    September 4th, 2007 at 11:19 pm

    Drake – I test drove the Prius, and I noticed sometimes a definate lag in acceleration when you step on it.

    From what I’ve heard, electric motor acceleration is excellent due to the high torque at all speeds. Look at the Tesla Roadster – 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds!  
    
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    omegaman66 Says:
    September 5th, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    Trains are electric. Power is limited to…. hmmm… freaking millions of pounds of towing capacity.

    Thanks for pointing out the lack of an expensive heavy transmittion in a serial hybrid. I forgot about that one and I am sure there are many others.

    Still looking for the ONE advantage the parallel hybrid has?

    Don’t try to say less expensive battery either because neither has to have a large battery… it just makes sense to have as many kw as possible.

    Oh.. here is another. Potentially better recapture of energy from braking.  
    
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    Mark Bartosik Says:
    September 5th, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    “Better” always needs to be qualified.

    Series: Better at being able to use zero gasoline.

    Parallel: Better at making use of small old technology batteries.

    So it depends what your goal is. If it is to get off oil, then series is better. If it is to avoid risk (and potential rewards) of getting into next generation batteries then parallel is better.  
    
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    WRONG on Prius Says:
    September 6th, 2007 at 8:10 am

    WRONG,
    Toyota’s system can be both a parallel and a series hybrid because of the power split device. You get the best of both worlds. At low power requirements (cruising) you will be in series mode; at high power requirements (accelerating, up hill, etc…) you will be in parallel mode. You could say they have a hybrid hybrid. The series mode isn’t seen much in today’s Prius, but you will see it when they expand the battery pack for the plugin.

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car7.htm

    “The power split device is the heart of the Toyota Prius. This is a clever gearbox that hooks the gasoline engine, generator and electric motor together. It allows the car to operate like a parallel hybrid — the electric motor can power the car by itself, the gas engine can power the car by itself or they can power the car together. The power split device also allows the car to operate like a series hybrid — the gasoline engine can operate independently of the vehicle speed, charging the batteries or providing power to the wheels as needed.”  
    
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    WRONG on Prius Says:
    September 6th, 2007 at 8:27 am

    The blue traction line from the engine to the wheels is only there when needed. See how another traction line also goes to recharge the batteries? Guess what, they can split the power to both at once, or to just one at a time, depending on what is most efficient at the time which depends on the power demand.

    Toyota’s drivetrain is therefore ahead of GM’s, with the ability to operate in either parallel or series configuration since one is sometimes preferable to the other.

    The battery question still has to be answered. GM doesn’t have prototypes for testing yet and Toyota hasn’t even announced who they may be working with so it’s pretty darned dumb to award GM the winner at this point.

    Both companies should be commended for at least working on this at least.  
    
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    Jaros Says:
    September 8th, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    I think that one of the reasons that GM insists on serial hybrid arrangement is that it allows for fuell cells use in the future without redesigning the underlaying architecture. FCPHEVs are solely serial hybrids as FCs output is electrical.  
    
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    Dave G Says:
    September 9th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    WRONG on Prius – I guess if the Prius had an electric motor that would go 75mph on a slight uphill grade, then that would work. So you would need an electric motor that is about twice the size of the today’s Prius. This would still be about half the size of the Volt’s electric motor.

    However, a PHEV Prius would still need a battery pack like the Volt or larger to get 40 miles of all-electric range. Remember that smaller electric motors actually use MORE electricity under the same load. In other words, larger electric motors are more efficient. This is the exact opposite of gas engines.

    Now add the fancy power-splitting transmission. Remember that serial hybrids require no transmission. I would guess a power-splitting transmission costs and weighs more than a larger electric motor.

    Sorry – I really see no advantage of a plug-in parallel hybrid.  
    
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    Tom Says:
    September 14th, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    What good is an electric car if it can’t go over 35 MPH, accelerate meaningfully, or drive more than a few miles?

    I.e., what good is a Prius in its “serial hybrid” configuration? Unless you’re using it to drive between holes on a golf course.  
    
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    GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Concept Site » Toyota Denies it Denigrated the Volt Says:
    November 21st, 2007 at 10:09 am
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    David Says:
    November 21st, 2007 at 11:40 am

    My crystal ball shows me that whatever configuration is purchased more is the configuration that will be produced more.

    I plan on buying the Volt’s Series design… although MDI’s CAT Car (www.theaircar.com) also interests me.

    No thanks to Toyota for this round.  
    
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    Richard N Says:
    November 23rd, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    The discussion of whether series or parallel vehicle is better is really moot until the finished product with price comes out and a proper comparison is done. GM needs to keep the price of the Volt competitive with the Prius; 20 to 25k for the basic model. There are so many of us that really want to get one but the price will mean the difference whether we can get one or not.  
    
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    Chevy Needs to Release the Volt Now Says:
    November 27th, 2007 at 10:34 am

    Well it all comes down to this: Toyota has the most fuel efficient car out there right now. The Volt is still 3 years from actual production. There is much that can happen in 3 years that may scrap the project. If they were really serious, they should be taking down payments from the public. This way they will be forced to supply the consumers with a date and a product. Also, this will generate more money for R&D to make the product release more rapid. Once they have this in production, the rest of the car companies, including Toyota, will be left in the dust. Right now though, GM is not promising anything and Toyota owns the market.  
    
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    Vincent Says:
    February 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    In a Dae Woo Bus Study, a couple of professors at UCDavis did a comparison of ICE, Parallel and Series Hybrids, using simulations and guess what, the parallel hybrid was 100.8% better than the ICE while the Series was 70.3% better. Other than this, i have no other details.  
    
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    Dan Says:
    March 2nd, 2008 at 12:31 am

    Well all I can say is that Toyota is better because it is out. I currently have a Prius and am waiting anxiously for GM to get their crap together on the Volt. I am so sick of waiting. Spark EV has a few electric cars out including a small suv which I would love to have but the range is not economical for me. GM is just playing games. With $4.00 a gallon gas expected Spring 2008 they would wipe the other car companies off the face of the earth with Summer 2008 Volt production. If they wanted to have it out they would have by now. They need to get with the times and what the market wants. If they would have had the Volt out by 2007 they would have had more units sold than the Prius. They wonder why their sales are in the crapper, well foresight would have saved their P.O.S company. Release the damn Volt rather than teasing the American public!  
    
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    Charlie H Says:
    March 16th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Toyota’s system has the advantage that you aren’t required to plug it in to use it effectively.  With s small recharger motor, the Volt will be at a serious operational disadvantage if you don’t plug it in.

    The key problem with that is that it limits the Volt to people who have a garage – or at least a place to plug in, reliably and safely, at night.  How much of the potential market does that eliminate?  If the Volt is expected to appeal to greens… many of them won’t have a garage.

    As for the overall tenor of this blog post – Toyota thinks their system is better.  So?

    First, let’s consider the history… Toyota has been studying actual Prius operation on the streets for years.  GM?  Not so much.  Who probably has better data?  If the one with better data is saying, "this approach is better," I’d give that possibility some serious consideration.

    Second, let’s consider the venue in which Toyota said this… to their stockholders.  They intend to reassure them that they know what they’re doing.  Considering that the Prius actually works, has been on the street for years, is highly reliable and is the fuel economy champ, I’d say… they probably DO know what they’re doing.

    GM and its fanboys should spend more time emulating Toyota and less time trying to tear Toyota down.  
    
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    Judson Puckett Says:
    March 24th, 2008 at 5:07 am

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    http://www.cvco.org/civic/organ/roa/  
    
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    Dante Says:
    December 27th, 2008 at 1:16 am

    The diagram is also inaccurate. The Volt’s “generator” shares the same electric “bus” with the battery, so all the power it generates doesn’t have to go through the battery – some of it (or all of it, in theory) could go directly to driving the electric motor. The ICE and the battery can combine forces to propel the car directly through the larger and more efficient electric motor in the Volt. Less moving parts, less complex transmission, larger electric motor, flexible choices for the ICE, sounds like a winner to me. Personally, I’d love to get a Volt with one gasoline tank, and one CNG tank – a dual fuel ICE that prefers CNG and only dips into the gasoline when absolutely necessary. If I’m going to be plugging in my Volt to the electrical outlet in my garage every night, I’d love to be able to refill the CNG tank at the same time.  
    
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    Dave G Says:
    December 27th, 2008 at 8:02 am

    #30 Dante,
    Here are some charts that show what you’re saying:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Volt_Electrical_Block_Diagram.jpg

    As for CNG, there are 2 problems:
    1) Compressed natural gas engines are very inefficient
    2) CNG engines emit more CO2 than gasoline or diesel engines

    CNG engines are cleaner, so they emit much less pollution. But for the long term issue of global warming, CNG is worse than what we have today.

    But perhaps along the lines you were thinking, remember that the Volt’s ICE runs on gas or E85. Cellulosic ethanol has none of the problems associated with corn ethanol, and can replace up to 35% of our gasoline consumption. See here for details:
    http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
    GM is a major investor in this company.

    So if EREV can replace 80%, and cellulosic ethanol can replace 35%, that’s 115% – more than enough to replace all of our current gasoline consumption.  
    
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