Comments on: New York Times Article on Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/ Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:07:32 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Mark Bartosik http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6281 Mark Bartosik Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:43:45 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6281 I really want to see this as an option. I would like to use a Volt for power backup more than for helping the utility on a regular basis. However, if there are enough controls on how it is used, I'd be happy to supply grid at peak demand. I will pay plenty for the ability to use as a standby / backup generator, because then I don't need to buy a generator. This would also need to be available in 240v rather than 120v for me to be interested. This also complicates things if the battery is leased, because V2G will tax the battery a little more. Possibly putting it through 2 cycles per day rather than 1. I really want to see this as an option.
I would like to use a Volt for power backup more than for helping the utility on a regular basis.

However, if there are enough controls on how it is used, I’d be happy to supply grid at peak demand.

I will pay plenty for the ability to use as a standby / backup generator, because then I don’t need to buy a generator.

This would also need to be available in 240v rather than 120v for me to be interested.

This also complicates things if the battery is leased, because V2G will tax the battery a little more. Possibly putting it through 2 cycles per day rather than 1.

]]> By: Steven B http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6261 Steven B Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:02:19 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6261 A couple of things to point out here: V2G technology has an extremely strong potential to modernize our electrical grid (which is actually very, very outdated in some places) and allow us to maximize wind power at lower costs than coal power (due to managing intermittency), also we live in free market and people (both users and utilities) will be free to do whatever they want, so the prices paid for V2G services will meet or exceed that demanded by providers. And one last thing, V2G services are not base load services with the same prices as power plants. What V2G services are called are 'ancillary services' and they are used to maintain high quality electricity to the grid. It is extremely expensive, and while a fleet of vehicles using V2G technology will bring the costs down, we as EV owners and service providers will not be cut out of the savings. We are actually liable to make money by doing this, and it's conceivable that the power companies may even take over our battery leases for us and guarantee replacement if we accept contracts. Also, it's not inconceivable that we will be able to set the parameters ourselves for charging and uploading to the grid, including our own prices where if we're not paid what is demanded then we will simply be charging our cars at regular prices and nothing else. This is a market opportunity for all involved, and a significant one at that. Money, both savings and income, will be available for everyone involved. I support this, and if the terms will be favorable for me to provide services, then I will volunteer them at the proper cost. A couple of things to point out here: V2G technology has an extremely strong potential to modernize our electrical grid (which is actually very, very outdated in some places) and allow us to maximize wind power at lower costs than coal power (due to managing intermittency), also we live in free market and people (both users and utilities) will be free to do whatever they want, so the prices paid for V2G services will meet or exceed that demanded by providers. And one last thing, V2G services are not base load services with the same prices as power plants. What V2G services are called are ‘ancillary services’ and they are used to maintain high quality electricity to the grid. It is extremely expensive, and while a fleet of vehicles using V2G technology will bring the costs down, we as EV owners and service providers will not be cut out of the savings.

We are actually liable to make money by doing this, and it’s conceivable that the power companies may even take over our battery leases for us and guarantee replacement if we accept contracts. Also, it’s not inconceivable that we will be able to set the parameters ourselves for charging and uploading to the grid, including our own prices where if we’re not paid what is demanded then we will simply be charging our cars at regular prices and nothing else. This is a market opportunity for all involved, and a significant one at that. Money, both savings and income, will be available for everyone involved. I support this, and if the terms will be favorable for me to provide services, then I will volunteer them at the proper cost.

]]> By: Dave G http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6198 Dave G Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:08:04 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6198 AES - The generator (alternator) is DC for practical purposes. Mike G - The generator/alternator is mechanically AC, but uses diodes to convert AC to a choppy DC. Connecting the alternator to the battery smoothes out this chop significantly. So it's basically DC. There is a good picture of this here: http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm about 1/2 way down the page. Even if you could get some sort of AC tap off the alternator, there's no way it would exactly line up with the 60 hz phase on the grid. Bottom line: You will need to convert the DC of the battery-generator bus back to AC using an Inverter. AES – The generator (alternator) is DC for practical purposes.

Mike G – The generator/alternator is mechanically AC, but uses diodes to convert AC to a choppy DC. Connecting the alternator to the battery smoothes out this chop significantly. So it’s basically DC.

There is a good picture of this here:
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm
about 1/2 way down the page.

Even if you could get some sort of AC tap off the alternator, there’s no way it would exactly line up with the 60 hz phase on the grid.

Bottom line: You will need to convert the DC of the battery-generator bus back to AC using an Inverter.

]]> By: Bill http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6191 Bill Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:58:54 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6191 Transfer switch and/or subpanel (subpanel limits the circuits - e.g., no A/C compressor, no electric range) The guy at http://priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm matched the UPS in his house to the battery in his Prius (DC to DC) I don't see any real incentive for V2G at my cost (max rate under 8 cents/kWh) I'd never let power be sucked back out of my charged battery pack for grid use, even if they paid me 2x retail. I'd want that power for the vehicle or as an emergency backup to run household loads in the event of a power failure. >The circuit breaker is probably limited to 15 amps of a single phase in the breaker box Transfer switch and/or subpanel (subpanel limits the circuits – e.g., no A/C compressor, no electric range)

The guy at http://priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm
matched the UPS in his house to the battery in his Prius (DC to DC)

I don’t see any real incentive for V2G at my cost (max rate under 8 cents/kWh)

I’d never let power be sucked back out of my charged battery pack for grid use, even if they paid me 2x retail.

I’d want that power for the vehicle or as an emergency backup to run household loads in the event of a power failure.

>The circuit breaker is probably limited to 15 amps of a single phase in the breaker box

]]> By: Bill http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6190 Bill Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:58:07 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6190 Transfer switch and/or subpanel (subpanel limits the circuits - e.g., no A/C compressor, no electric range) The guy at http://priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm matched the UPS in his house to the battery in his Prius (DC to DC) I don't see any real incentive for V2G at my cost (max rate The circuit breaker is probably limited to 15 amps of a single phase in the breaker box Transfer switch and/or subpanel (subpanel limits the circuits – e.g., no A/C compressor, no electric range)

The guy at http://priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm
matched the UPS in his house to the battery in his Prius (DC to DC)

I don’t see any real incentive for V2G at my cost (max rate The circuit breaker is probably limited to 15 amps of a single phase in the breaker box

]]> By: Mike G. http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6166 Mike G. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:58:25 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6166 AC Motor! AC Motor!

]]> By: AES http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6163 AES Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:15:27 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6163 "The Volt uses a rectifier to convert the AC in to DC for the battery, you would need a converter to take the DC and make AC to run your stuff" I know this is a bit of a tangent, but is the Volt's electric motor itself going to be AC (like the EV1) or a brushless DC? “The Volt uses a rectifier to convert the AC in to DC for the battery, you would need a converter to take the DC and make AC to run your stuff”

I know this is a bit of a tangent, but is the Volt’s electric motor itself going to be AC (like the EV1) or a brushless DC?

]]> By: Tim http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6158 Tim Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:55:12 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6158 As long as it's in the "sweet spot" there should be little degradation. Perhaps those who sign up for V2G can receive a FREE extended battery warranty from the power utilities. They can pay for the warranties with some of the $Billions they are saving by not having to build more plants, upgrade the grid or waste expensive fuel by spinning turbines while waiting for spikes. The devil is always in the details and there are many to yet work out. As long as it’s in the “sweet spot” there should be little degradation. Perhaps those who sign up for V2G can receive a FREE extended battery warranty from the power utilities. They can pay for the warranties with some of the $Billions they are saving by not having to build more plants, upgrade the grid or waste expensive fuel by spinning turbines while waiting for spikes.

The devil is always in the details and there are many to yet work out.

]]> By: Marty http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6155 Marty Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:04:59 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6155 Sorry, McFly is busy replacing his Volt battery (prematurely) due to excessive V2G charge cycles... Sorry, McFly is busy replacing his Volt battery (prematurely) due to excessive V2G charge cycles…

]]> By: Tim http://gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6152 Tim Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:05:28 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/03/new-york-times-article-on-vehicle-to-grid-v2g/#comment-6152 What does v2g give us? More stable grid means less downtime and less strain on the grid which means fewer repairs and less maintenance. More available standby power at peak means less run up/run down at the peaks means fewer more efficient plants which use less fuel. Less fuel means lower power costs & fewer emissions. V2G = Efficiency, lower costs, fewer plants, less fuel burned and lower emissions. Hello, are you in there McFly? What does v2g give us?

More stable grid means less downtime and less strain on the grid which means fewer repairs and less maintenance. More available standby power at peak means less run up/run down at the peaks means fewer more efficient plants which use less fuel. Less fuel means lower power costs & fewer emissions.

V2G = Efficiency, lower costs, fewer plants, less fuel burned and lower emissions. Hello, are you in there McFly?

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