Comments on: Report About A123 Systems

By: voltman

voltman — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 05:52:15 +0000

“Quite frankly, one charge per day is simply not going to be enough, as I see hordes of employers offering electric outlets for their plug-in employees, just as they did during the heyday of the EV-1 in So CA. Employees work roughly 240 days a year”

Why isnt one charge per day enough? They said it takes 6 hours to recharge the thing. You can only do that at work and at home (at night when its cheaper is better). You would only benefit from recharging at work if you work more than 20 miles from home, which, by design, is only 20% or so of us.

Maybe charging at work would be a big draw for california companies, but that just isnt going to happen anywhere else for a while.

By: kent beuchert

kent beuchert — Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:00:30 +0000

Notice that we are no closer to knowing the life charge/discharge cycle of the VOLT. The article talks in terms of “full
charge/discharge cycles” while the VOLT
prevents any full charge/discharge cycles. The LG Chem fellow estimated that his battery might live “40 years” which means a whole lot more than 5,000 cycles. More like 15,000. I realize that in the absence of accurate data, engineers always overbuild,
often making things twice as strong as they think they need to be. But inaccurate overbuilding means that driving ranges are shorter than they need to be. Obviously, we’ll see as the years go by exactly how much they overbuilt, although most likely new technology batteries will appear by then, making the issue rather moot. Of course, all these cycles limits are in software and can be readjusted in the
future on those first generation VOLTs. We might discover that the VOLT battery pack can easily accomodate 50 or 55 mile driving ranges, and reprogram the control system to do just that.
Quite frankly, one charge per day is simply not going to be enough, as I see hordes of employers offering electric outlets for their plug-in employees, just as they did during the heyday of the EV-1 in So CA. Employees work roughly 240 days a year.

By: Don

Don — Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:20:21 +0000

AES, CBAK (A123’s Chinese sub – publicly traded on NASDAQ btw) is “one of the largest manufacturers of lithium-ion battery cells in China and the world, as measured by production output. -http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001144204-07-040630&Type=HTML
They are heavily investing in facilities to produce Li-PO4 batteries for the EV/PHEV market. (Eyes there not only on working with GM but on the Chinese domestic market which is predicted to be a rapid growth area for these vehicles)
Which is just to say that this is no boutique operation that needs to grow; the mass production capicity is there as soon as they turn the key.

A123 is still negotiating price with GM and GM still hasn’t committed to them. You think maybe A123 might be a little less than forthcoming with the press about what their real bottomline is?

By: AES

AES — Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:29:10 +0000

Don and Omega-

Tesla is using mass-produced cells that you can buy yourself for $5 apiece, so they are taking full advantage of economies of scale.

Using those cobalt-based laptop cells would build the volt pack for less than $2,000. But then you run into the massive safety problems.

What you can take away from this not-so-scientific comparison, though, is that LiFEPO4 cells like A123’s will eventually come way down in price once they enter even wider mass production. The materials are cheaper and more widely available. A123’s doping cations I’m not sure about though.

By: omegaman66

omegaman66 — Sun, 02 Sep 2007 06:10:19 +0000

As I SPECULATED earlier the price of the battery is going to be an ever changing thing because it is brand freaking new. GM has said they will likely take a loss on the beginning (until the battery price drops I imagine)!

25K for the battery is in line with what I thought the battery would cost based on the cost of the tesla battery.

I was reassured over and over that the battery would be around 9K. I now believe that the true cost of the battery will indeed be around 25K and not 9. Eventually 9K but only down the road.

Like I said if the battery was 9K GM wouldn’t be talking about leasing the battery to you.