What’s the Hymotion Commotion?

23 Responses to “What’s the Hymotion Commotion?”

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   Dave Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 2:38 pm

   Thanks Lyle all the new info.

   I don’t think a PHEV Prius will be that interesting. The Prius is a parallel hybrid design. The electric motor by itself will only get you up to a speed of 40 mph. If you step on it, the gas engine will kick in for acceleration. So the only way to get the all-electric range is to drive like an old lady.

   By contrast, the Volt is electric car with a gas generator. All the power and acceleration comes from the electric motor, which is much larger than the Prius.

   I suppose if the Prius battery dies, you might be in the market for Li/Ion, but who wants to drive like an old lady in order to make use of it?  
   
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   Steven B Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 2:44 pm

   I like the idea of replacing cashed NiMH’s for li-ion batteries. I own a 2005 hybrid Civic, and to me, if I were to keep the car long enough, I would find the idea appealing. But I don’t expect to ever buy a Prius now, unless the Volt takes longer than expected to come to market. I’m scheduled to finish car loan payments in May of 2011 and expect fully that my next car will be a Volt. But for those who are not in my position, I think it’s a good idea. Plus, if you get the Hymotion upgrade with plug-in capability, you are eligible for a $7500 tax credit. So for certain hybrid owners, me excluded, it’s actually a really good idea.  
   
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   omegaman66 Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 3:41 pm

   The parrallel hybrid with plugin capability still is going to meet the law of diminishing returns fairly quickly. Most of my driving is done at speeds of 50 to 60 miles per hour. Once the battery is big enough to get me where I am going for the times that I am at 40 or below any added battery capacity is wasted/unused.

   This new add on will help some people and others not so much.

   So it is a good measure for now but the serial hybrid is a much better design. If battery tech improves then the next step is all electric. We aren’t there yet though.

   evolution ice>>>>parrallel>>>>serial>>>>possibly all electric  
   
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   kent beuchert Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

   The cost I’ve heard quoted is $13,000 and I’m not sure there is any guarantee for the battery pack beyond 5 years. Toyota voids the warranty is a car is so modified. Then there’s the inability to drive all electric above neighborhood speeds. Economically, it makes no sense.  
   
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   LabRat Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 5:38 pm

   No, at the current battery prices, no PHEV makes sense. At high-volume it gets better, but payback time has never been the incentive for buying a hybrid in the first place. The Hymotion system can get you 40 miles in charge-depleting mode, a mode that can get you 150-190 MPG..!!! EV capability may give you the ‘electric smile’ but is not necessary to displace petroleum usage. “It the gas-savings stupid”  
   
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   omegaman66 Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

   [quote]At high-volume it gets better, but payback time has never been the incentive for buying a hybrid in the first place.[/quote]

   Ummm maybe not for you and maybe not for most of the people that post here but for most of the public cost is key! Electric doesn’t have to be more expensive and the Volt is the first real step in that direction.  
   
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   Dave Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 8:12 pm

   LabRat – I think mileage numbers like 150-190 MPG are deceiving because they don’t include the fuel required to make the electricity. Remember that electricity is about 70% fossil fuels, 20% nuclear, and 10% renewable – See chart here:
   http://www.gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-for-use-and-cost-of-operation/
   So maybe it would take 1 gallon of gas plus a bushel of coal to go 190 miles.

   My concern is that when people hear numbers like 150-190 MPG, and then later find out this isn’t the whole story, it will end up creating mistrust, and these people will become less interested in the Volt.  
   
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   Matt986 Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 8:44 pm

   Like Dave says, saying a PHEV gets ‘xxx miles per gallon!!’ is deceiving. Much like with the Volt.

   You really have to look at it in Cost Per Mile… which of course varies depending on how far you drive.  
   
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   Steven B Says:
   August 27th, 2007 at 10:26 pm

   I stand by what I said earlier. For some people it is good idea. For others, not so much. The issue of energy idependence in the United States is about really one source of energy: oil. Rock oil (petroleum). Coal is a terrible source of energy, and conventional natural gas is being liable to peak not long after oil, unless you include methane hydrate from the bottom of the sea. The current state of affairs in American policy is to restrict the amount of use of oil until we can return to only using our own and that of Mexico, Canada, and Russia. The idea is to stick it to OPEC, including Venezuela. The movement to near-zero emission energy use (through the use of biofuels, wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal power) is long a term goal. The miles per gallon of plug-in vehicles still stands as described and is far extended when including ethanol and other biofuels is also applicable to plug-in fuel economy. All plug-in tech is better than conventional gas-only tech.  
   
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    Drake Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 1:27 am

    One reason stated that wind turbines could never provide more than 20% of the grid’s electricity is because at night the energy created from the turbines is wasted because it is not used. Plug-in hybrid technology flips that equation on its head. Plug-ins can be programmed to charge during off-peak times when turbines are not otherwise being fully utilized. That has the potential to remove a lot of the dirty, coal-generated electricity from the equation. PHEVs can be very clean vehicles and this can be accomplished without very much effort.

    For one reason or another, we all want to be free from oil. The only way that this will ever happen, however, is if we _embrace_ new technology. No technology is perfect with its inital release. None. We will only get away from oil when we realize this, and embrace the new ideas that are infront of us.  
    
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    ug Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 2:35 am

    Nobody really needs the Volt. What we need are the batteries. You can convert old throwaway used cars to electric for only a few grand more than the cost of the battery pack. Obviously that isn’t as GLAMOROUS as a Volt, but it is viable and I expect more and more people to do this as battery advances allow.  
    
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    Dave Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 5:20 am

    Steven B – Why is coal a terrible source of energy? It’s abundant in the US, and a car running on electricity made from coal has 1/3 the carbon footprint of a gasoline car. If you add carbon capture, it only gets better.

    Yes, we should look at new ways to generate electrical power long term, but if PHEVs start ramping up soon, then coal and natural gas seem to be the only near-term solutions.

    What’s wrong with coal?  
    
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    LabRat Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 10:00 am

    PHEV miles per gallon is not a description of energy efficiency – its a measure of petroleum displacement. Driving on electricity is 1/3 the cost of driving on gasoline, but not 1/3 the carbon footprint (do you have a reference). In fact there is only a marginal savings in CO2 for PHEVs. Remember, renewables to make electricity are always running at capacity. the added energy needed for PHEVs charging at night will come from coal/nuke.  
    
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    Don Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Even if using exclusively unsequestered coal, grid derived power produces a much smaller carbon footprint that ICEs. EVs are much more efficient. Take the Tesla, for example. This is no slouch of a car. It outperforms many expensive and gas-guzzling sportscars. Yet its efficiency is 2.18km/mj compared to 0.68km/mj for the Prius! That is why Tesla’s analysis with the entire mix of US power generating mixed in still had it with superior scores, with a well to wheel efficiency of 0.83km/mj compared to the Prius’s 0.56km/mj well to wheel. And of course compared to the average car …. whoa.

    Now that’s for a powerful roadster going 0 – 60 in 4s. How about for the Phoenix sport utility truck? Its battery holds 35kwh and has a range of 130 miles. Going through the conversion that’s 1.66km/mj (feel free to check my math). Okay a hair less than the Prius but it’s a goddam sport utility truck!

    Even with today’s old coal powerplants powerful and big EVs produce much less total CO2/mile traveled than comparable ICE powered vehicles and at a savings in daily costs of use and maintainance over the vehicle’s lifetime. With domestically produced energy. Add to that the capacity to use cellulosic biomass to cogenerate with the coal, some very clever sequestration ideas, and an increasing segment that is cleaner than coal and even renewable … and it gets better and better.  
    
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    Don Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 10:40 am

    Please correct, Phoenix is three times as efficient as the Prius, not a hair less. Sorry. Point of course stands even more so.  
    
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    Steven B Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 11:51 am

    The problems with coal: it’s a very carbon-intensive energy source, the coal we usually burn is bituminous which is a dirty coal (it’s known for releasing massive amounts of carcinogenic particulates as well as heavy metals such as mercury, lead, and arsenic), it’s nonrenewable, it’s increasingly expensive and will soon be more expensive than wind power, it’s dangerous to extract, exploitation is destructive to the physical environment (strip-mining), and it’s bad for local economies from which it is derived. Adding ‘clean coal’ technology (sequestration and other advanced emission management schemes) makes it more expensive than the clean alternative of wind power, and the actual cost of coal, due to resource depletion, will only increase in the future. It’s better than oil since we control our own supply of it, but there’s not much good to say about it beyond that.  
    
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    omegaman66 Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    Milage will vary tremendously. Some with the volt will get 1000 miles to the gallon. Others only 100! Miles per gallon is what it is. It is not a lie or misleading to say the volt gets an average of X miles to the gallon because it is true.

    If anyone does not know that they have to purchase electricity to charge a battery they shouldn’t be driving.

    The volt gets much better mile per gallon than my truck. But my truck gets infinetly more mj than a volt!

    Facts are facts. Miles per gallon doesn’t take into account electricity. duh!  
    
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    James Stewart Says:
    August 28th, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Don et. al.

    Great posts, but………

    THINK SI! It’s km/MJ you mean. Told pedant reminds you to think of Ogden Nash’s Prof Twist:
    I give you now Professor Twist
    A conscientious scintist.
    Camped upon the river’s side
    One day he missed his loving bride.
    She had, the guide informed him later
    Been eaten by an alligator.
    Prf Twist could not but smile,
    You mean, he said a crocodile!

    Don’t get me started on the use of K, Kelvin, for k, kilo!  
    
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    Dave Says:
    August 29th, 2007 at 5:46 am

    LabRat says: “Driving on electricity is 1/3 the cost of driving on gasoline, but not 1/3 the carbon footprint (do you have a reference).”

    Yes, here is a reference that shows 1/3 the carbon footprint:
    http://www.evworld.com/electrichybrid.cfm

    Also, Tesla has a whitepaper
    http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/twentyfirstcenturycar.pdf
    that compares their Roadster (high-performance sports car EV) to a Prius, with the Roadster running on coal generated from the the least efficient coal burning power plants built in the 1950s. Even under this doubly unfair comparison, the carbon footprint of the Roadster is better than the Prius by a wide margin.

    Note that this is all without carbon capture. Adding carbon capture makes coal even greener.  
    
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    Dave Says:
    August 29th, 2007 at 6:18 am

    Steven B says “it (coal) is nonrenewable, it’s increasingly expensive and will soon be more expensive than wind power,…”

    My understanding is that wind power uses up a lot of land and is much more expensive than coal for the same level of power. Do you have a reference that shows otherwise?

    Guys – don’t get me wrong here. I’m not in love with coal. I would love for renewables to replace it. My only point is that when you look at the data, coal isn’t that bad. And in the near-term, I think coal can help us make the conversion to PHEVs. Once cars are running on electricity, then hopefully the economics and land use issues of renewables will improve, and renewables will really take off.  
    
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    Oil Jihadi Says:
    August 29th, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    We first need vehicles like the Volt, then we need lots of new nuclear reactors. It’s a 2 step process. I doubt the politicians will be dumb enough to take on the oil industry AND the coal industry at the same time? Why pick 2 fights at once.

    Best idea is a carbon tax to the coal power plants that is basically next to nothing, and set that way for a decade. That way it does no harm, but the writing is on the wall. The tax exists and will only grow with time, chose nuclear instead. In the meantime, the politicians invest all energy in attacking oil.

    That is the plan, according to divine intuition, of course.

    Join the jihad against oil
    http://www.oiljihad.org  
    
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    Don Says:
    August 30th, 2007 at 12:07 am

    BTW using the figures posted in today’s update in which we learned that the Volt is planned to go 40 miles on 8kwh we can calculate its efficiency when using grid derived power alone and compare it to the Tesla, Phoenix, and the Prius. I get that it operates at 2.24 km/MJ (see, I’m educable ). So we have the Prius at 0.68 km/MJ, the Phoenix at 1.66 km/MJ, the Tesla at 2.18 km/MJ and the Volt at a best yet 2.24. Well to wheel efficiency using today’s electricity generating mix and working off of grid derived power is 0.85, a 52% improvement over the Prius.  
    
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    Jorply Says:
    July 2nd, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Release me from my pain! haha. I just made $620 playing online poker (Texas Holdem) at http://post691.com – Time to party!  
    
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